Is it me, or am I seeing more Wings stickers?

coinsarefun

Maybe I haven't been doing the in depth world coins for awhile but
it appears to be popping up more. Silver and gold WIng Stickers.

Does anyone go for this........or care?
Is it received like CAC is?

Exbrit

I've seen more this past year than ever before. Even bought one. I do not think it compares to CAC or ever will.

brg5658

I treat it just like a CAC sticker -- I completely ignore it!

Zohar

Seriously though, some very nice testimonials LINK

coinsarefun

I actually do not have any negative feeling towards CAC or Wings.
I just noticed searching an auction site that the majority of the world coins
had Wings approved.

I don't make a decision to buy or pass based on the stikcker but I do notice both
of them and usually will take closer at it to see if I agree.

7Jaguars

Seems like a lot of Goldberg coins with this sticker....

Hussulo

I remember they were looking for a name for the service and I suggested "WINGS" on this forum, which they chose to go with. It's nice to see them doing well.

Zohar

I believe that any experienced collector can identify a CAC/Wings type of coin. It helps collectors getting into the world coin arena to get a better feel for grading and choice designation.

nicholasz219

Haha I had no idea what Wings even meant until I just looked it up. Thanks for the link, Z.

I thought it was Paul McCartney coins or something.

coinsarefun

<< <i>Seems like a lot of Goldberg coins with this sticker.... >>





That's what got me thinking about them.....so many I couldn't help but notice.
From what I saw the silver stickers appeared "for grade" and gold "superior for grade"
Most were accurate.

marcmoish

I treat it just like a CAC sticker -- I completely ignore it!

yup - what a bunch of crock!

mercurydimeguy

Curious how my coins fare with them, I just sent a box of 18 for them to review.

I think there are at least 6 lock stickers, but will see +/- what kind of outcome I get. Should know in about 2 weeks.

mercurydimeguy

First of all, amazing turnaround times. Coins arrived at my house today. I shipped them to Wings 10 days ago (Sept 18). Kudos!

I sent a box of 18 of my PCGS 1869 world coins.

Here are my results:

- Gold stickers: 9 -- wow/sick!
- Silver stickers: 7
- No sticker: 2

I am overwhelmingly happy with the results, which helps me confirm that I'm looking at the right coins, and making good buying decisions, because nearly all of the coins I made at PCGS.

Thought I'd share...

brg5658

<< <i>First of all, amazing turnaround times. Coins arrived at my house today. I shipped them to Wings 10 days ago (Sept 18). Kudos!

I sent a box of 18 of my PCGS 1869 world coins.

Here are my results:

- Gold stickers: 9 -- wow/sick!
- Silver stickers: 7
- No sticker: 2

I am overwhelmingly happy with the results, which helps me confirm that I'm looking at the right coins, and making good buying decisions, because nearly all of the coins I made at PCGS.

Thought I'd share... >>




Results like that just reassure me that I don't need an additional opinion in the WINGS service. Between my opinion and that of a TPG, that's good enough for me. And, when I look at the weighted importance of those opinions, it's about 95% my opinion, and 5% the TPG -- so no room left for a WINGS opinion.

To each his/her own. My money is better spent on more coins than on sparkly stickers.

neildrobertson

<< <i>I treat it just like a CAC sticker -- I completely ignore it! >>



Agreed. I dread CAC/Wings stickers. It just means people are going to want to ask for that much more money for their coin. Fortunately, I rarely see them on coins I am interested in.

Zohar

I would look at it as an expense to validate your assumptions on eye appeal. I believe this confirms you have a good eye which is observed in your listings.

brg5658

<< <i>I would look at it as an expense to validate your assumptions on eye appeal. I believe this confirms you have a good eye which is observed in your listings. >>



If people are submitting for their "education" that's fine. I wouldn't submit anything to WINGS expecting it to make one iota of difference on value attained for a coin in an auction.

===================

I guess I'm curious if mercurydimeguy thinks he got ~$300 worth of education / utility out of sending in 18 coins to WINGS for little shiny stickers.

If I read their website correctly, it's $10 per submission + $12.50 per coin + shipping / insurance both ways.

$10 + $225 + (~$30 x 2) = $295

Add on to that the $25+ / coin or so already spent on the PCGS slabbing.

No thanks.

mercurydimeguy

I didn't realize the topic was that contraversial...

I only started collecting World in the last 12 months, applying US principals so I got a lot of value out of submitting my coins for review.

$300 education in numismatics is pitons in context, as people have lost many many thousands.

Now I have some validation that my eyes are seeing what they should be looking for, and in some instances (Gold wings) even exceeding.

I'm not looking to boost resale value ... I just bought them/made them at PCGS and I'm building a whole set.

Eventually someone will go sell them and the little sticker might help them

pruebas

<< <i>

<< <i>I treat it just like a CAC sticker -- I completely ignore it! >>



Agreed. I dread CAC/Wings stickers. It just means people are going to want to ask for that much more money for their coin. Fortunately, I rarely see them on coins I am interested in. >>


I agree with you. The US coin folks can keep their stickers if they want, but they're not for me.

neildrobertson

<< <i>
Now I have some validation that my eyes are seeing what they should be looking for, and in some instances (Gold wings) even exceeding.
>>



I think this statement is where you'll lose people like me. Your eyes shouldn't be looking for anything in particular. Each person needs to look for what he wants and what he likes, and not let other people decide how to feel about it. It's a little bit like trying to standardize aesthetics. A WINGS sticker essentially means "A person, somewhere, likes this coin", and, in most cases, it's obvious from looking at it that most people everywhere would like that coin. If you want someone to validate your coin, you can post it on the forums and people will compliment it for free.

You could say they introduce an element of decimal grading, but only loosely. The normal TPG grading is very standardized based on a number of elements and their consideration of those elements is clearly published and established. The WINGS website doesn't specify how they factor in eye appeal or other technical components into their approval. They supposedly have stringent standards, but what are the standards?

STLNATS

<< <i>I think this statement is where you'll lose people like me. Your eyes shouldn't be looking for anything in particular. Each person needs to look for what he wants and what he likes, and not let other people decide how to feel about it. It's a little bit like trying to standardize aesthetics. A WINGS sticker essentially means "A person, somewhere, likes this coin", and, in most cases, it's obvious from looking at it that most people everywhere would like that coin. >>



+1

brg5658

<< <i>I didn't realize the topic was that contraversial...

I only started collecting World in the last 12 months, applying US principals so I got a lot of value out of submitting my coins for review.

$300 education in numismatics is pitons in context, as people have lost many many thousands.

Now I have some validation that my eyes are seeing what they should be looking for, and in some instances (Gold wings) even exceeding.

I'm not looking to boost resale value ... I just bought them/made them at PCGS and I'm building a whole set.

Eventually someone will go sell them and the little sticker might help them >>



Just to clarify, the gold WINGS sticker does not mean that they think the coin is undergraded. The gold sticker from WINGS is similar to the green sticker from CAC -- it means they think the coin is premium quality for the grade but properly graded. The silver sticker means the coin is "solid for the grade" -- whatever that means.

WINGS does not have a sticker like the CAC gold sticker that means they think your coin is undergraded.

To state for the record, I don't have a problem with people using the WINGS service. That is your prerogative. I don't think it's controversial at all. I just personally will not give them any money to verify what I can already see with my own two eyes, and what the three(ish) people at the TPGs have already seen. And, by the way, mercurydimeguy, I love your 1869 set, and it's clear to me that you can tell quality coins with or without the help of TPGs or WINGS.

brg5658

<< <i>

<< <i>I think this statement is where you'll lose people like me. Your eyes shouldn't be looking for anything in particular. Each person needs to look for what he wants and what he likes, and not let other people decide how to feel about it. It's a little bit like trying to standardize aesthetics. A WINGS sticker essentially means "A person, somewhere, likes this coin", and, in most cases, it's obvious from looking at it that most people everywhere would like that coin. >>



+1 >>



+2

Very well said Neil.

mercurydimeguy

This is a good thread, lots of interesting perspectives here. I appreciate everyone's contributions...

Like I said, I'm kind of new to the World coins scene so this has been educational.

PS. I've been collecting coins since 13 (46 now), and believe it or not my first unofficial (because I was too young at the time) job was working in a coin store and later working for a traveling coin dealer whose eye sight was going, I was grading coins for him. I also was able to buy a lot of really nice coins that I then sold in my early 20's, which helped me buy a new car For whatever reason unbeknown to me, I am able to fairly accurately grade coins and also know what "nice" looks like. However since I don't do coins for a living (I run a small software company), I guess I'm still a bit insecure and need/ask for some confirmation from others

ShadyDave

MDG- I agree that doing this as an educational test is a good idea and overall the expense it is a drop in the bucket for many people. Its no different than submitting coins to a TPG and seeing what is/isn't acceptable and I think if this helps you evaluate a coin better (and more accurately for what is considered acceptable) then I say go for it.

When you get a chance, could you take some pictures of what you received back from WINGS (what was stickered and what was not stickered)? I'd like to see what your coins "received" from WINGS.

Thanks-
David

mercurydimeguy

ShadyDave, here's a start, and I'll update over the coming couple days...11 for tonight, 5 more to come (all silver wings).

Unless they are marked as Ex NGC, Anacs, or OGH, etc., I bought the coins raw and got them slabbed myself... all 100% PCGS plastic now. The ones that were in other holders were cracked and sent in raw.

nicholasz219

It is almost like the guy from Wings is trying to market his grading ability and world expertise to either create a valuable add on service to the TPGs or to get a job at one of the TPGs himself. I mean, you can not fault a guy for trying to market what probably took most of a lifetime to develop as a skill. If he can make some money by giving a seal of approval of sorts to someone's already graded coins, then he has created value for himself if not his customers. The problem is that without him having enumerated exactly what standards he is using to make these judgments and even what the judgments themselves mean, his business can not last for long if he can not clearly train people around him to continue on the service and if those outside of the company (either as customers of his now or potential buyers of coins approved by his standards). TPGs work and have lasted as a category because for the most part they work on a clearly defined set of parameters that are accepted industry wide basis. Wings guy might have very stringent standards that he is applying to award certain coins his seal but if the whole process is opaque then no one will know or care what any of it means.

I for one, would prefer to not spend money on this type of service. It seems mostly counterproductive and wasteful. If mercurydimeguy is happy getting some validation on his eye, then okay. I for one, would be pretty happy getting approval from the folks here if I was uncertain if a coin was I dunno, terrible? Under graded? Again I am not even sure what I would be buying with this service. This goes back to our prior conversation on the forum about folks overselling their coins with superlatives such as "SUPER GEM UNC AWESOME COIN" when in fact a MS65 grade would be sufficient.

marcmoish

I thought it was Paul McCartney coins or something. LOL

But seriously..here’s my take I never really posted this back many months ago when Lissner had his collection sold….just saved it and forgot about it.


I see that WINGS has reviewed many of the coins in this sale. A major marketing coup, for which they deserve congratulations!

What part exactly is cool about it?

I bet the Europeans are rightfully laughing their arses off at our ridiculous culture of slabbing - now we have something else to spend MORE $ on…wing stickers!
What’s next? - Cellophane clear baggies to hold the slab that stickered with tamper-proof “twist-its” or security thread?
Maybe we should sell AD space on the slabs too

Text
Silly me, of course I need WINGS to tell me this is PQ …or it’s good for the grade like it really makes a diff if it’s in a 66 holder or 67? Let alone a toddler can tell you it rocks.

Text
Oh, and this one forget about it…I totally can't tell it’s an amazing gem - we need WINGS to tell us it’s OK!

And we can go thru the WHOLE collection and I mean every single piece.
I am shocked that some of us are all giddy or doe eyed over this accomplishment…and service.
Besides if you really want to know if your coin rocks, is PQ or as graded....ask a friend, post it HERE or any other coin blog/forum etc.

JMHO!

Zohar

No sarcasm here, Marc - with your keen eye for quality I propose this sticker -



Marc has a super eye for technical grading and eye appeal and shoots it straight. In quite a few cases where I had been on the fence about a coin purchase, a PM to Marc will get you there.

I remember watching the live sale of "The Mandate Mints! PCGS #1 All - Time Finest Registry Set of Palestine Coins." - Marc's collection The Mandate Mints! - prices were unheard of for such a unique collection. Made my day.

MightyMikeMiami

I just was made aware of this thread and if I had seen it earlier I would have responded at that time. So excuse me if this is being done after the fact. I am well positioned to address this thread as I am the president of WINGS, along with Lance Tchor.



Why did grading services succeed? Simply because of mistrust of dealers by the collecting public. Dealers hated the idea that someone would look over their shoulders and question their integrity. The dealers who were honest, had integrity and had great insight embraced the concept. It helped confirm to their clients that the clients have been treated fairly. Well, after a slow start the acceptance of grading has taken root in America. Easily over 62 MILLION coins have been graded by the “Big 2" grading services. More than 2 million a year!



How many articles have you read where dealers or collectors couldn’t understand how an AU58 in one year became an MS 62 or better years later. How many stories have you heard of games that the grading services play or favoritism that is shown to certain dealers? This led to mistrust by collectors and hence was born the CAC concept. Now not only did dealers hate the idea but now the grading companies joined suit because, they, just like the dealers before them, did not appreciate having a third party looking over their shoulders. Why do you suppose that generally CAC coins sell for a premium over the same graded coins without the CAC sticker?



Some of you have written that you don’t need either a grading company or a stickering company to be able to judge a coin. God bless you. When it comes time to sell your coin would you rather sell it raw or sell one that was certified with a CAC sticker? If you are honest with yourself the answer is obvious and the increase in value over the cost to grade and sticker is well supported by documentary evidence to that effect. Do you think that your buying market is, as a general rule, as qualified as you to make an informed decision as to the grade of a coin? I know that most of you know that answer as well.



So for the very, very few of you able to properly grade a coin, and are truly in it solely for collecting the raw coin I think that’s great. But the overwhelming number of collectors are really collectors/investors and they care about both facets.



So change came. You may not have liked it at the time but you eventually embraced it. How many dealers sell only non-CAC coins and refuse to place CAC coins in their cases? I would venture to say not too many. CAC is where it is at for U.S. coins. They do not review world coins. In fact only WINGS does. We have been in business for several years now so we are no fly by night company.



Those of you who were fortunate enough to listen to Steve Ivy and Jim Halperin of Heritage Auctions being interviewed at the Legacy dinner in Dallas earlier this month surely walked away impressed. One question asked of them was what did they see for future growth in the coin industry. Steve answered that without a doubt it was world coins. He pointed to the number of locations that PCGS and NGC have opened overseas over the last several years. He said that the world market is really in its infancy stages with regards to grading just as the US market was 30 years ago. Why would you suppose that David Hall of PCGS and Mark Salzberg of NGC decided to spend millions overseas and are continuing their expansion? Is it because they too agree with Steve and Jim that the future is overseas?



Thank you for all the positive remarks that were written. For those of you who just feel better about themselves by trashing or bad mouthing others, isn’t your time best spent elsewhere? This is nothing more than an extension of negativity. Any psychologist will tell you that negativity is bad for your health and that with a positive attitude you will be healthier. I guess the old saying of, “if you don’t have something nice to say then don’t say it” comes to mind. My only question to you would be, “have you taken the time at coin shows to actually pick up any of the WINGS stickered coins”? Then you can form your own opinion of the quality of what we do. I get it. You still may not wish to use us, but you won’t be able to say that we put out an inferior product.



I want to distinguish between negativity and constructive criticism. We love constructive criticism. Our focus is to continue to get better and be responsive to your needs. Fortunately some of your criticisms deserve a response. It allows us to review areas within our company and make changes that we feel are warranted.



One comment spoke about the cost to have a coin reviewed by us. Our cost is $12.50 for coins valued under $10k and $25 for values above that. This is similar to CAC. Obviously there is postage, insurance and handling (just like any grading or stickering service). At coin shows, if you submit your coins directly to us early enough they will be returned at the show for NO EXTRA COST! Moreover, this will save you money for postage and insurance.



brg5658 asked whether the spending of around $300 for 18 coins (about $16.67/coin) was worth it. Generally a WINGS stickered coin is worth the cost! Let me say unequivocally that WINGS coins have brought an average of 13% more than non-WINGS coins in auctions. How do we judge that. Easy, for every auction we compare the final sales prices to the low estimates both for WINGS and non-WINGS stickered coins. We then compare the two results. This is based on +/- 10,000 lots over the last 3 years. WINGS ALWAYS has sold for more.



Next, neildrobertson wrote that our site doesn’t adequately explain our standards. Thank you. Our standards are not limited to the basic industry-wide accepted criteria; i.e., strike, luster, marks, and eye appeal. With our 400+ years of experience with our consulting staff and employees we deal with thousands of mints over hundreds of years in which the quality of the minting process is also a major factor that must be considered. We will update our site to make this clearer for everybody. I believe that I will add it to our FAQ #8. Thanks again.



The World coin market is only going to continue to grow and with it you will see more graded world coins and stickers. That’s just the way it is going to be. The extra “comfort” factor of having a third set of eyes look at your coins or the added value that your coin may enjoy with a WINGS sticker is but two reasons to consider trying us out. Again, I recognize that it is not for everyone, only the other 99% who buy the holder and not the coin.



Finally, if any of you that wish to speak to me off forum please send me an email at Larry@Wingscoins.com. I would love to hear from you and I will be receptive to anything that you have to say.



Thank you.

Larry Michelson, President

WINGS COINS

Exbrit

Originally posted by: Exbrit
I've seen more this past year than ever before. Even bought one. I do not think it compares to CAC or ever will.

Let me add that I hope Wings does well and becomes as well known as CAC. I think anyone wishing another opinion from what the TPG company grades is a good thing. It doesn't mean everyone has to use them, but the TPGs have made mistakes in the past. I would like to see a sticker for under graded coins, however. The key here is if Wings or CAC for that matter remains consistent, unbiased and ethical. Otherwise it's a waste.

MightyMikeMiami

Thank you.

ACop

Originally posted by: brg5658

I didn't realize the topic was that contraversial...

I only started collecting World in the last 12 months, applying US principals so I got a lot of value out of submitting my coins for review.

$300 education in numismatics is pitons in context, as people have lost many many thousands.

Now I have some validation that my eyes are seeing what they should be looking for, and in some instances (Gold wings) even exceeding.

I'm not looking to boost resale value ... I just bought them/made them at PCGS and I'm building a whole set.

Eventually someone will go sell them and the little sticker might help them

Just to clarify, the gold WINGS sticker does not mean that they think the coin is undergraded. The gold sticker from WINGS is similar to the green sticker from CAC -- it means they think the coin is premium quality for the grade but properly graded. The silver sticker means the coin is "solid for the grade" -- whatever that means.

WINGS does not have a sticker like the CAC gold sticker that means they think your coin is undergraded.

To state for the record, I don't have a problem with people using the WINGS service. That is your prerogative. I don't think it's controversial at all. I just personally will not give them any money to verify what I can already see with my own two eyes, and what the three(ish) people at the TPGs have already seen. And, by the way, mercurydimeguy, I love your 1869 set, and it's clear to me that you can tell quality coins with or without the help of TPGs or WINGS.

From what I gathered, whereas CAC gives a green sticker for A and B coins, thereby ignoring the difference between an A and a B coin, and a gold sticker for undergraded coins.
Wings makes a differentiation between A and B coins while ignoring the undergraded possibility. Both a major weakness of either service, among many other weaknesses. But both are probably planned future proofing mechanisms of what is a finite business to sell more stickers once the current model's pool runs dry(just like the TPGs do with their moving target grading and + signs)

Cac will one day sell a silver sticker, that your green bean coin can earn if out of the green bean A+B pool, they determine yours is an A not a B. And their Gold stickers could then also earn a green or silver to go with the gold bean to determine where it lands in that next grade.(Still need some kind of sticker add on in case the coin is more than 1 grade undergraded)
Wings can then sell Platinum beans for under graded coins.

Persoanlly I am anti CAC/WINGS/Crown whatever other stickers are out there.

Its actually funny to think about in this way.
Imagine you are the one that first sparks the sticker idea (JA?) and you are sitting around with your partners at a meeting and present the idea "We are going to make millions of dollars just by looking at someone's coins and putting stickers on them"

Cut to years later as you shovel money you are swimming in and you turn to your partners "Can you believe this sh!T?? What I tell you? Fkn Stickers man!!!!"...Then you all laugh manically.

YQQ

It all still boils down to this:
anyone who buys "slabbed" or stickered coins if you will, is paying for someone else's opinion.
Question: what do TPG's base their respective opinion on?
there is definitely no known common base, except a lot of experience and common sense.

I just wish there would be a lawful minimum norm recogniced and adhered to by all countries. Perhaps like the DIN norm for industry.

YQQ

Mighty Mike Miami

would you please try and answer the following to satisfy my curiosity:

assume you are presented a coin for verification graded as AU53 by a top notch TPG like our host. ( lets say the above Agyptian Gold coin). the coin was previously graded by NGC as a 55.
What criteria do you base your verifications on ?? Is your grading "tainted" by the existing grades? Could the coin maybe only be a AU 50?
would you be surprised if you would have a chance to see the exact type of coin also slabbed by one of the TPG's but with a grade of AU50 but having an overall better appeal and less issues.? or, another as a AU 58 in visible worse condition.
Who is now to believe? In many cases these grades represent considerable value differences.
And if a coin carries your sticker, will you also take part in the buy-back program of a TPG if the coin , the slab and stickers are Chinese Knock offs?

I have NO problem with you providing your service to whom ever wants it. But they are just simply buying another opinion.
perhaps tomorrow someone else offers a super platinum sticker?
H
.