Ortiz HOFer?? Papi v. Pops??
judgebuck
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Papi v. Pops. Willie Stargell made it. McGriff, Delgado, Bagwell, etc., didn't. Papi had the big moments in playoffs and World Series, but he was mainly a DH. Steriods? Is he as deserving as Stargell?
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
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I'll give credit where credit is due - he's been clutch for the BoSox for many years. But I can't see him ever getting selected to the Hall Of Fame.
<< <i>The whole steroids thing disqualifies him IMHO. Also, even if he wasn't on the juice are you gonna put him in the HOF as a DH before Edgar Martinez gets in?
I'll give credit where credit is due - he's been clutch for the BoSox for many years. But I can't see him ever getting selected to the Hall Of Fame. >>
contemplating this as well. the only modern basic topps player set i do, but agreed. the man is the definition of clutch and in absolute monumental moments. pressure does produce diamonds.
and a staple of the bosox org for quite some time now. maybe not hall worthy, but certainly get's the notion and worthy of debate.
The PEDs thing was never proven, just hearsay from someone who said they saw a list that was supposed to be confidential. We don't even known what substance he supposedly tested positive for.
Since then he has been subjected to multiple random drug tests over the years, and passed them all.
He has 500 HRs and still going strong. His world series and playoff performances were phenomenal. And he has been a model citizen in Boston.
Big Papi is a hall of famer in my books.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
If you are looking at it aside from any possible PEDs allegations, then on what grounds does Martinez definitely go in ahead of him?
Ortiz leads in most hitting categories with Martinez getting the nod in BA and OBP. In the postseason, Ortiz beats him in both of those categories handily.
Ortiz finished top 5 MVP in five straight years, Martinez had only 1 top 5 finish. Ortiz a 9 time A.S to Martinez' 7 times.
Ortiz won MVP in one of the most historical AL championship series' in history and also won an MVP in a World Series.
And lets not forget one last detail ---- that Ortiz is still going strong.
<< <i>It's a good question but as mentioned, Edgar "professional hitter" Martinez goes before he does >>
'Nuff said.
<< <i>Papi v. Pops. Willie Stargell made it. McGriff, Delgado, Bagwell, etc., didn't. Papi had the big moments in playoffs and World Series, but he was mainly a DH. Steriods? Is he as deserving as Stargell? >>
Bagwell didn't make it YET. His voting stats indicate he should get there, everyone else who has had his totals thus far eventually make it.
I think Ortiz has a decent shot. I don't think HOF is just about stats, he's beloved in Boston and I think most other places is respected and even liked. That's counts for a lot.
I forgot to throw in the 3 World Series championships vsm 0.
And really the 2 stats that truly should matter the most in baseball are RBIs and Runs scored. Ortiz leads him in both.
Based on their decorated resumes, Ortiz has more Hall worthy credentials. ,Nuff said.
I would hope that some of you research his PED test though, as it's not as cut and dry as most cases. He has been outspoken about steroids being a scourge on the game. When his name was leaked as being on a list, he wanted answers. He asked the union, who confirmed he was on the list. Since then he has asked MLB repeatedly what he tested positive for and they won't tell him. Here is why I'm inclined to believe him when he says he never knowingly took anything: he has repeatedly gone to th Boston sports media to complain that he can't get answers about what happened. A guilty person would hope a controversy calms down and goes away. But every time the talk has died down about Ortiz's failed test, he personally brings it back into the public consciousness. He never lets it drop, even when it might be in his best interest to do so. I think this shows that any failed test was truly an accident, maybe the result of some OTC supplement, and that he genuinely wants to find out what happened, confront it, and hopefully clear his name. Not all PED cases are created equal. This wasn't 2 dudes in a bathroom stall injecting each other in the buttocks. I think (and hope) that Ortiz's PED use was purely unintentional.
And whether or not that would make a difference in his HOF candidacy, I have no idea.
Always looking for Mantle cards such as Stahl Meyer, 1954 Dan Dee, 1959 Bazooka, 1960 Post, 1952 Star Cal Decal, 1952 Tip Top Bread Labels, 1953-54 Briggs Meat, and other Topps, Bowman, and oddball Mantles.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
3123 AB's
772 Hits
.247 AVG
220 HR (1 HR per 14.20 AB)
1993-2001
3064 AB's
854 Hits
.279 AVG
363 HR (1hr per 8.44 AB)
Now if you factor in the averages of the first half of McGwires career (pre steroid) into the 2nd half you get these numbers...
.247 Average, 6187AB, 1530 Hits, 435 Home Runs.
Dave Kingman's line looks like this....
.236 Average, 6677AB, 1575 Hits, 442 Home Runs.
Near identical.
Not a bad career by any means but you can see the difference PED's make. This is example #1 why PED use should be taken into consideration in terms of entry to the Hall of Fame. In my opinion at least it qualifies as almost disrespectful to have someone Like McGwire in the HoF with his 583 HR's next to someone like Frank Robinson who did the same without.
<< <i>I was reluctant to chime in, since it's well known I'm a Sox homer. I'd like to think Ortiz gets in, but I recognize that the cloud of PED suspicion and voters' attitudes toward that probably make his an uphill climb.
I would hope that some of you research his PED test though, as it's not as cut and dry as most cases. He has been outspoken about steroids being a scourge on the game. When his name was leaked as being on a list, he wanted answers. He asked the union, who confirmed he was on the list. Since then he has asked MLB repeatedly what he tested positive for and they won't tell him. Here is why I'm inclined to believe him when he says he never knowingly took anything: he has repeatedly gone to th Boston sports media to complain that he can't get answers about what happened. A guilty person would hope a controversy calms down and goes away. But every time the talk has died down about Ortiz's failed test, he personally brings it back into the public consciousness. He never lets it drop, even when it might be in his best interest to do so. I think this shows that any failed test was truly an accident, maybe the result of some OTC supplement, and that he genuinely wants to find out what happened, confront it, and hopefully clear his name. Not all PED cases are created equal. This wasn't 2 dudes in a bathroom stall injecting each other in the buttocks. I think (and hope) that Ortiz's PED use was purely unintentional.
And whether or not that would make a difference in his HOF candidacy, I have no idea. >>
How many failed test have been medically proven to be an accident? And remember A-rod and Lance Armstrong passed every test also.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>Ortiz's failed test was in 2003 and he's passed over a hundred tests since. So what exactly does McGwire's juiced prime have to do with anything? >>
Nothing at all.
McGwire's juiced prime is an example of the effect PED's have on a career statistically. His juicing is well documented so it allows more easier comparison.
Without steroids David Ortiz would most likely have a career average of .258 300 home runs. He might not of even had that as he struggled to get playing time pre 2003 and had he continued to play w/o the PED's he might not of ever gotten the number of AB's he eventually had.
Of course this is an opinion.
<< <i>Edgar "professional hitter" Martinez goes before he does
If you are looking at it aside from any possible PEDs allegations, then on what grounds does Martinez definitely go in ahead of him?
Ortiz leads in most hitting categories with Martinez getting the nod in BA and OBP. In the postseason, Ortiz beats him in both of those categories handily.
Ortiz finished top 5 MVP in five straight years, Martinez had only 1 top 5 finish. Ortiz a 9 time A.S to Martinez' 7 times.
Ortiz won MVP in one of the most historical AL championship series' in history and also won an MVP in a World Series.
And lets not forget one last detail ---- that Ortiz is still going strong. >>
+1
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<< <i>Just as Vols1 said....ARod and Lance passed all theirs as well.
McGwire's juiced prime is an example of the effect PED's have on a career statistically. His juicing is well documented so it allows more easier comparison.
Without steroids David Ortiz would most likely have a career average of .258 300 home runs. He might not of even had that as he struggled to get playing time pre 2003 and had he continued to play w/o the PED's he might not of ever gotten the number of AB's he eventually had.
Of course this is an opinion. >>
Sorry, but this post makes zero sense.
IMF
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED