and yet that wagner still sells for 2.8 million. all the public knowledge of the trimmed not once but twice wagner and its still in a psa 8 holder, I think psa needs to quit sending back my 75 minis as too short lol.
From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8?
There was comment period before sentencing for those who either felt damaged or wanted to speak on his behalf. Several prominent folks in the hobby recommended leniency
after reading this it brings up a question I've wondered and thought I'd ask you all.
I've noticed on more than a few Ebay auctions I have bid on that cards I lost on bids after what seemed like bidding wars were going on were relisted soon after. Generally I pull out of the auction once I think there is a bid war going on but many times I frequent the same seller and notice the same cards back up for sale.
Is this an obvious sign of someone schilling their auctions?
I really doubted that I would be compensated for his theft in this matter towards me. If I stole a candy bar I would have been sentenced to life in prison. I see how justice works which is absolutely sickening. I have received over 50 letters from the DOJ asking if I would like to attend the hearing, but every month the hearing was always delayed. I hope he gets his dose in prison.
This world is messed up.
Shane
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
<< <i>I really doubted that I would be compensated for his theft in this matter towards me. If I stole a candy bar I would have been sentenced to life in prison. I see how justice works which is absolutely sickening. I have received over 50 letters from the DOJ asking if I would like to attend the hearing, but every month the hearing was always delayed. I hope he gets his dose in prison.
<< <i>I really doubted that I would be compensated for his theft in this matter towards me. If I stole a candy bar I would have been sentenced to life in prison. I see how justice works which is absolutely sickening. I have received over 50 letters from the DOJ asking if I would like to attend the hearing, but every month the hearing was always delayed. I hope he gets his dose in prison.
This world is messed up.
Shane >>
I know it shouldn't be discussed here but maybe a pm would you mind telling me what happened? It's cool if you don't want to.
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview?
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview? >>
Come on, it's always been believed that the card was trimmed. There are pics of before and after, and Mastro has admitted to trimming that card among MANY others. Anyone that still believes that card is unaltered has their head in the sand, or is being dishonest.
Mastro may have done a great job on the trim and the edges may look like the factory cut but there is no doubt he improved that card.
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview? >>
Come on, it's always been believed that the card was trimmed. There are pics of before and after, and Mastro has admitted to trimming that card among MANY others. Anyone that still believes that card is unaltered has their head in the sand, or is being dishonest.
Mastro may have done a great job on the trim and the edges may look like the factory cut but there is no doubt he improved that card. >>
It's 100% altered, should be removed and placed in an "A" for authentic flip. If nothing else than for the sake of maintaining credibility and due diligence in the graded card game. That Wagner is biggest example of "there's a sucker born every minute" in the graded card racket that there has ever been
Suckers? The card is MORE iconic because of the controversy and history. If it comes up for sale again, the price will be incredible, even though it's altered. They're not stupid.
diamond backs owner has it, i believe. and he stated the same thing casey just said. it's story and infamy only helps...probably the one exception to the rule.
as for it being trimmed. i believe in the original auction, it was touted as an "oversized" example and this was pre-encapsulation.
<< <i>Suckers? The card is MORE iconic because of the controversy and history. If it comes up for sale again, the price will be incredible, even though it's altered. They're not stupid. >>
Here's what I meant by suckers in the graded card game...We're all suckers for this card, for falling for it, for using it as an early example of this new thing called "third party grading you can trust us to grade accurately and fairly". The Wagner was the card held up as the standard back in the early 90's when TPG started to gain traction. PSA and others for allowing the grade to remain as is even though CLEARLY the card is altered and should not be in a PSA 8 holder, is wrong. The proper thing to do is to get that card out of it's fraudulent holder and placed in a correct one. Accountability, owning up to a mistake. That still flies in this day and age, I think it does anyway. Let the folks go ahead spend their big bucks on it, sure it's a famous card. Probably is more famous now than before(no small task considering it's a Wagner). But it's a fraud as is graded.
It will never be reholdered into an "Authentic" holder. I cannot see anyone spending millions on this card, turning it in to PSA and saying "review please, and if trimmed, put in Authentic holder." Also, I don't know if PSA would even put it in an Authentic holder (instead of just leaving it alone).
As many have stated before, this is an iconic card that transcends third party grading. I would also like to believe third party grading has improved since this was encapsulated.
<< <i>It will never be reholdered into an "Authentic" holder. I cannot see anyone spending millions on this card, turning it in to PSA and saying "review please, and if trimmed, put in Authentic holder." Also, I don't know if PSA would even put it in an Authentic holder (instead of just leaving it alone).
As many have stated before, this is an iconic card that transcends third party grading. I would also like to believe third party grading has improved since this was encapsulated.
Matt >>
Of course the owner(s) wouldn't do that since it would be the right thing to do LOL. I do wonder though..Hypothetically...With all the notoriety the card has received, and the extra attention it would get if the owner(s) did do the right thing and if PSA did do the right thing by reholdering into an A holder, would the card in an auction setting, or a straight sell, go for more than in it's current and fraudulent 8 flip? I think there would be a chance that it could. Due to publicity, infamy, whatever it may be. Never gets switched out of the 8 holder though, I agree.
I am not a graded card guy, if someone buys a graded card for x based on the grade, and the card is later determined by the grader itself to be improperly graded or trimmed, does the grader offer any warranty the buyer can claim against ? Does it have to be the original submitter or does the warranty carry with the card ?
I personally do not feel I have the moral compass to lecture a buyer as to what he should do with cards he has bought. In this case it would not be possible to "fool" a subsequent buyer.
I don't play the graded/registry game either, but it is my understanding that PSA will offer a refund if a graded card is later determined to be fake or altered.
The funny thing is, you are probably right. Because of the notoriety the card likely will maintain its value. If not increase it.
Its also a piece of fraud memorabilia - like Enron stock certificates or Bernie Madoff investment account statements.
Although under sentencing guidelines the judge could have imposed a longer sentence, the prosecution itself recommended 20 months due to his cooperation in their cases against others. He and his supporters sought probation. The public, including perceived victims, did have the opportunity to write the court with their views prior to sentencing. It would be difficult for most people who participatied in their auctions to know for sure or prove they were victimized by shilling since most records were destroyed
Judge's hands were not tied. He was not bound to the government recommendation. Many people filed letters pro and con. There were many comments about his charitable and community related activities. Specific victims and evidence of actual damages were scarce due to nature of the fraud and destruction of records
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison." >>
<< <i>Judge's hands were not tied. He was not bound to the government recommendation. Many people filed letters pro and con. There were many comments about his charitable and community related activities. Specific victims and evidence of actual damages were scarce due to nature of the fraud and destruction of records >>
How often will a judge not work with the government recommendation when a cooperation agreement has been offered and agreed to by the prosecution?
Yes he will be in "prison" but the term is used loosely here. He will most likely be placed in a minimum security facility for white collar crime. He will not be with the low life type. I have seen these type facilities first hand as my brother was in one. They are more like a hotel. It will be like he is on a 20 month vacation.
msassin
Posts: 1,564 ✭✭✭
Comments
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>of those prominent folks, anyone that we deal with? >>
Best not to be discussed here.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
I've noticed on more than a few Ebay auctions I have bid on that cards I lost on bids after what seemed like bidding wars were going on were relisted soon after. Generally I pull out of the auction once I think there is a bid war going on but many times I frequent the same seller and notice the same cards back up for sale.
Is this an obvious sign of someone schilling their auctions?
<< <i>Is this an obvious sign of someone schilling their auctions? >>
Yuuuup!
he went from trimming to being the trim.
This world is messed up.
Shane
<< <i>I really doubted that I would be compensated for his theft in this matter towards me. If I stole a candy bar I would have been sentenced to life in prison. I see how justice works which is absolutely sickening. I have received over 50 letters from the DOJ asking if I would like to attend the hearing, but every month the hearing was always delayed. I hope he gets his dose in prison.
This world is messed up.
Shane >>
+100
Dave
<< <i>I really doubted that I would be compensated for his theft in this matter towards me. If I stole a candy bar I would have been sentenced to life in prison. I see how justice works which is absolutely sickening. I have received over 50 letters from the DOJ asking if I would like to attend the hearing, but every month the hearing was always delayed. I hope he gets his dose in prison.
This world is messed up.
Shane >>
I know it shouldn't be discussed here but maybe a pm would you mind telling me what happened? It's cool if you don't want to.
<< <i>Wonder if he will pay me what he stole from me? >>
You could always contact RiRi to see if she can collect on your behalf.
Snorto~
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview?
<< <i>
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview? >>
Come on, it's always been believed that the card was trimmed. There are pics of before and after, and Mastro has admitted to trimming that card among MANY others. Anyone that still believes that card is unaltered has their head in the sand, or is being dishonest.
Mastro may have done a great job on the trim and the edges may look like the factory cut but there is no doubt he improved that card.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison."
Looks like the fun may just be getting started
Has PSA ever addressed the fact they slabbed a trimmed card as an 8? >>
I believe there's an interview with David Hall out there somewhere where he stated he still believe the card to be unaltered based on review of the card's edges. Maybe someone has a link to the interview? >>
Come on, it's always been believed that the card was trimmed. There are pics of before and after, and Mastro has admitted to trimming that card among MANY others. Anyone that still believes that card is unaltered has their head in the sand, or is being dishonest.
Mastro may have done a great job on the trim and the edges may look like the factory cut but there is no doubt he improved that card. >>
It's 100% altered, should be removed and placed in an "A" for authentic flip. If nothing else than for the sake of maintaining credibility and due diligence in the graded card game. That Wagner is biggest example of "there's a sucker born every minute" in the graded card racket that there has ever been
There is a decent book on it, "The Card"
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>Slap on the wrist or not? >>
For a 62 year old that's no slap on the wrist IMO, but I do wish it was more like 5 years.
It's a hobby, but it's serious business too, and it's many people's lives and hard work being hurt because of the greed of a select few.
As for the Wagner, I think it needs to be made an example of as well. Doing so would actually make something good out of a bad situation.
as for it being trimmed. i believe in the original auction, it was touted as an "oversized" example and this was pre-encapsulation.
everyone knew what that meant.
<< <i>
<< <i>Slap on the wrist or not? >>
For a 70 year old that's no slap on the wrist IMO, but I do wish it was more like 5 years.
It's a hobby, but it's serious business too, and it's many people's lives and hard work being hurt because of the greed of a select few.
As for the Wagner, I think it needs to be made an example of as well. Doing so would actually make something good out of a bad situation. >>
The article states he is 62 and it is still a slap on the wrist.
<< <i>Suckers? The card is MORE iconic because of the controversy and history. If it comes up for sale again, the price will be incredible, even though it's altered. They're not stupid. >>
Here's what I meant by suckers in the graded card game...We're all suckers for this card, for falling for it, for using it as an early example of this new thing called "third party grading you can trust us to grade accurately and fairly". The Wagner was the card held up as the standard back in the early 90's when TPG started to gain traction. PSA and others for allowing the grade to remain as is even though CLEARLY the card is altered and should not be in a PSA 8 holder, is wrong. The proper thing to do is to get that card out of it's fraudulent holder and placed in a correct one. Accountability, owning up to a mistake. That still flies in this day and age, I think it does anyway. Let the folks go ahead spend their big bucks on it, sure it's a famous card. Probably is more famous now than before(no small task considering it's a Wagner). But it's a fraud as is graded.
As many have stated before, this is an iconic card that transcends third party grading. I would also like to believe third party grading has improved since this was encapsulated.
Matt
<< <i>It will never be reholdered into an "Authentic" holder. I cannot see anyone spending millions on this card, turning it in to PSA and saying "review please, and if trimmed, put in Authentic holder." Also, I don't know if PSA would even put it in an Authentic holder (instead of just leaving it alone).
As many have stated before, this is an iconic card that transcends third party grading. I would also like to believe third party grading has improved since this was encapsulated.
Matt >>
Of course the owner(s) wouldn't do that since it would be the right thing to do LOL. I do wonder though..Hypothetically...With all the notoriety the card has received, and the extra attention it would get if the owner(s) did do the right thing and if PSA did do the right thing by reholdering into an A holder, would the card in an auction setting, or a straight sell, go for more than in it's current and fraudulent 8 flip? I think there would be a chance that it could. Due to publicity, infamy, whatever it may be. Never gets switched out of the 8 holder though, I agree.
<< <i>How many suckers have there been for that card and how much money have each of those suckers lost so far
There is a decent book on it, "The Card" >>
Just because the "Greater Fool" theory is on full display with regards to this card doesn't mean they weren't/(aren't) suckers
Another exhibit for the "Buy the holder not the card" legions, I guess.
I personally do not feel I have the moral compass to lecture a buyer as to what he should do with cards he has bought. In this case it would not be possible to "fool" a subsequent buyer.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
The funny thing is, you are probably right. Because of the notoriety the card likely will maintain its value. If not increase it.
Its also a piece of fraud memorabilia - like Enron stock certificates or Bernie Madoff investment account statements.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Slap on the wrist or not? >>
For a 70 year old that's no slap on the wrist IMO, but I do wish it was more like 5 years.
It's a hobby, but it's serious business too, and it's many people's lives and hard work being hurt because of the greed of a select few.
As for the Wagner, I think it needs to be made an example of as well. Doing so would actually make something good out of a bad situation. >>
The article states he is 62 and it is still a slap on the wrist. >>
Thanks for the correction. How much time do you think Mastro should have got?
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Slap on the wrist or not? >>
For a 70 year old that's no slap on the wrist IMO, but I do wish it was more like 5 years.
It's a hobby, but it's serious business too, and it's many people's lives and hard work being hurt because of the greed of a select few.
As for the Wagner, I think it needs to be made an example of as well. Doing so would actually make something good out of a bad situation. >>
The article states he is 62 and it is still a slap on the wrist. >>
Thanks for the correction. How much time do you think Mastro should have got? >>
I understand why the judge's hands were tied based on the agreement to cooperate.
I don't understand why the prosecution agreed/offered only 20 months for his cooperation.
I don't see how anything less than the maximum sentence acts to deter future "pioneers" from engaging in the same pattern of activity.
Edit: quote fail. not sure why my response is italicized.
Edit: quote fail fix. no more italics.
<< <i>Edit: quote fail. not sure why my response is italicized. >>
Put a 'q' before the closing bracket of the quoted area.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>From the story: "Mastro has been cooperating in related FBI investigations into his company and the sports memorabilia industry and doing so likely played a major role in lessening the time he will spend in federal prison." >>
Sounds like they trimmed his sentence
<< <i>Judge's hands were not tied. He was not bound to the government recommendation. Many people filed letters pro and con. There were many comments about his charitable and community related activities. Specific victims and evidence of actual damages were scarce due to nature of the fraud and destruction of records >>
How often will a judge not work with the government recommendation when a cooperation agreement has been offered and agreed to by the prosecution?
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
5 years for Doug Allen