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Treasure Coin (Crusader) Question

I will ask this in both the US and World Coin forums as a hypothetical.

Let's say a coin, struck by the Crusaders, is discovered. The coin depicts Crusader knights carrying away the Ark of the Covenant (that one from Indiana Jones). There is also a coded inscription HINTING that the Ark was found.

Maybe the coin is not unique-- there are say, less than 50 known. Is the coin itself valuable because of the Ark connection? Or is it only extra valuable if it truly leads to the discovery of the Ark?

Yes, I know it would have SOME value (three figures to low four figures) simply because its a Crusader-struck coin and is scarce-- but how much of a bump in value (if any) does it get because of the Ark reference?

Comments

  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the biggest hurdle to your hypothetical scenario becoming reality is the artistic skill of your typical celator in the Middle Ages. If you've seen a typical Crusader coin, you know their artwork is, to put it bluntly, rather poor. There's coins of Antioch that have a rather nice rendition of the prince wearing Crusader-style chain-mail armour, but apart from that, you pretty much need to be told what the object being depicted is supposed to be.

    There are fairly common coins of the Kingdom of Jerusalem that allegedly depict the "Tower of David". But if you look at them, all you can see is a cross-hatched device that resembles a portcullis. In other mediaeval coins, the object on the reverse of Tournois-style silver deniers is often described as a "castle", but scholars still debate about exactly what it's supposed to be: a fortress, a church, a throne, a crown? We don't know. And since we also don't actually know what the Ark looked like, I'm having difficulty imagining how an object depicted on a coin could unambiguously be proved to be a depiction of the Ark.

    Further, on the matter of inscriptions: they are likewise brief on mediaeval coins and, if highly abbreviated or "encoded", are open to debate as to exactly what they mean. It would have to be pretty blunt and unsubtle - say, "+ARCAM:FOEDERIS" or some such, for there to be any hope of academia accepting an "Ark" interpretation.

    All that aside, I don't really see it adding much value. Since the Ark hasn't turned up yet, evidence that the Crusaders believed that they'd found the Ark would be evidence of just that: the belief, not the actual Ark. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church believes that they've had the True Ark all along, hidden in their cathedral in Axum; they won't let anyone go in to see it or run scientific tests on it, so no-one else believes them; any coins or artwork depicting the Axumite Ark wouldn't have extra value because of it.
    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • ah, now THAT'S a detailed, thought-out answer (unlike the responses I got on the US forum to the same hypothetical). It pays to hang out in the Darkside!
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Yes, an excellent reply by Sapyx as usual.

    If you have ever seen the classroom experiment, where everyone is given a blank sheet of paper and asked to draw an object that is described in words only (no image) ...

    The only things we know about the Ark - including its visual description - are written in the 5 Books of Moses. So they are open to interpretation when being artistically rendered. Therefore I must unequivocally agree with Sapyx that it would be impossible to positively identify a drawing of the Ark unless the artist (or mint official, etc) were present to confirm that indeed it was their subject. Or if we had a written record from that time (primary evidence) stating that coin had the Ark depicted on it. And as Sapyx has pointed out, even if we DID know it was the Ark on the coin, it would not resemble anything like the actual Ark in real life, because the products at that time period were so crude.
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

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  • Not an answer to your question per say, and I believe that was already well responded to and agree with what was said, but the Judaean Bar Kochba revolt coins depict the ark supposedly
    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • image
    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NC is that Sela yours? That's a coin that I would love to have one day. I am not aware of other coins depicting the ark.
  • well, i guess the reason i bring up the subject is because i have an old bronze coin that depicts what LOOKS like God--or at least a giant face-- emerging from a funnel cloud from a crate-like object (the Ark??) ...and when you flip that same side upside down, the image somewhat resembles a crude byzantine-like image of Madonna and child, complete with halo. Of course i don't want to make too much of it (though i'm reeeeeeeeeally intrigued) because it kinda makes me sound like those pundits who say things like "these new mexico cave drawings suggest aliens visited New Mexico in prehistoric times!' Some crude lettering on the reverse, kinda looks islamic.


  • << <i>NC is that Sela yours? That's a coin that I would love to have one day. I am not aware of other coins depicting the ark. >>



    haha certainly not, those are 5 or 6 figure items when nice I believe
    =Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award 4/28/2014=
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Post some pictures! This way, we can tell you what the crude Islamic lettering on the reverse says image
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  • I would like to..... but in the last few years, ever since you had to go through some photobuckets process to post pictures here, i have consistently failed to figure out the process. One day maybe I will learn how but I am zero for every attempt since 2009.
  • but i guess what i CAN tell you is that my coin is attributed as a 1233-58 ae dirham of Mosil under the Zengids . Those are easy enough to look up online. However, mine must be quite a diff. die variety from all the ones I see online because mine only faintly resembles those other standard examples. Which is why i wonder, could mine be a ......................... crusader imitation?
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Or wrongly attributed. In a slab? or attributed in pen on the 2x2 flip? Either is fine, just curious.
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  • Actually I attributed my piece from seeing a similar coin in a 1997 Alex Malloy catalogue-- that coin's die design resembles mine closely (but not completely-- as in I don't see a funnel cloud or "Ark") and was attributed as a 1233-58 ae dirham of Mosul. But looking up OTHER pieces attributed as 1233-58 dirhams of Mosul, they resemble mine even less. On those is a seated figure holding a crescent. But on mine you don't see the figure's body, just the head (style of the head very different too)... and again, its connected to the crate-like object by a "funnel cloud." So there is definitely a difference. Plus, the "arabic" inscription on the reverse of my coin looks cruder and even diff. style than the 1233-58 dirhams I find on the internet.

    Maybe the 1997 Alex Malloy piece was attributed wrong, I don't know. Or maybe mine (and that Alex Malloy one) are different die varieties from same period, same mint. Or maybe mine (and the Malloy piece) are period imitations struck by Crusaders or Mongols or....??

    This is a coin type way outside the mainstream so hard to find concrete information on it. But hey, who wouldn't like to think they may have a piece/clue to the "Lost Ark" mystery?
  • SapyxSapyx Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not aware of any artistic tradition - not Christian, Islamic and certainly not Jewish - where God would be depicted as a human-like figure leaping out of the Ark.

    We're definitely needing to see pictures of this one before we can add anything sensible to this discussion. If you can't figure out the picture attachment thing, shoot one of us a PM or e-mail and we can attach it for you.
    Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.
    Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"

    Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD. B)
  • Well, i wouldn't call it God "leaping" full body out of the 'Ark" but rather his face emerging in a burst of cloud at the end of the funnel. I did try to load a picture yesterday but got "your image is too large" which i think is the message that always blocks me when I try to put an image on here. Don't know why this site is so problematic when it comes to loading pictures as compared to other sites. It didn't used to be.
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