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Earth to NFL; can't convict someone because they 'threw away" something
Sdub
Posts: 736 ✭✭✭
I'm not a Brady fan, but the NFL's case is borderline insanity. The smoking gun is a discarded phone?? Can you imagine setting that bar for convictions in a trial. "Defendant, please tell us what you threw away in the last 2 months since this incident occurred". "Oh....A-hah......sounds like you had some garbage.... hiding something??
IMO, NFL is going down on this one. A rejection of the suspension by the courts is a win/win for Goodell. He's probably winking at the judge to reject their case and reverse the suspension. He wins on both ends; He saves face by not reversing the suspension himself (the courts will do it), and he gets to continue the precedence of suspending players based on hearsay.
Topic; are Brady cards going up or down because of this?
IMO, NFL is going down on this one. A rejection of the suspension by the courts is a win/win for Goodell. He's probably winking at the judge to reject their case and reverse the suspension. He wins on both ends; He saves face by not reversing the suspension himself (the courts will do it), and he gets to continue the precedence of suspending players based on hearsay.
Topic; are Brady cards going up or down because of this?
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
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There is no question they took air out of the balls and the reason is because it works! They have texts from the equipment guys joking around that they are deflating, the balls themselves lost pressure but the Colts balls under the same conditions did not. The part to me that proves they know they did something illegal and covered it up - why did they suspend and fire the two equipment managers if nothing wrong was done. To me that is the clincher.
<< <i>I'm not a Brady fan, but the NFL's case is borderline insanity. The smoking gun is a discarded phone?? Can you imagine setting that bar for convictions in a trial. "Defendant, please tell us what you threw away in the last 2 months since this incident occurred". "Oh....A-hah......sounds like you had some garbage.... hiding something?? >>
As an article says "The government uses the very high reasonable-doubt, if-it-doesn’t-fit-you-must-acquit standard when determining whether a citizen will lose his or her liberty, but the NFL has no such limitation when deciding whether a player will lose money and/or the ability to play football."
^^^ And the player's union (stupidly) agreed to that. ^^^
But, obviously a judge will have the final say.
<< <i>Breaking news: organizations do not have to follow courtroom rules of evidence. >>
Bingo. They banned Big Ben for four games even after the prosecutor determined there wasn't sufficient evidence to bring him to trial. I'm not a fan of how the NFL metes out suspensions but this is what every NFL team except for the Steelers agreed to during the last collective bargaining negotiations. It's impacted the Steelers several times, now it gets to impact the Patriots.
<< <i>As an article says "The government uses the very high reasonable-doubt, if-it-doesn’t-fit-you-must-acquit standard when determining whether a citizen will lose his or her liberty, but the NFL has no such limitation when deciding whether a player will lose money and/or the ability to play football."
^^^ And the player's union (stupidly) agreed to that. ^^^
>>
Not sure why it's stupid. No one has the constitutional right to play in the NFL. If you break their rules, they can decide that you can't work for their organization anymore. I can't go to jail for being an a--hole, but my employer can certainly decide that I won't be part of their activities any longer because of that.
<< <i>So have you been fired yet? >>
Hopefully soon, so I can work on getting to 5,000 posts on a dead message board.
And as others noted above, there is no inherent or constitutional right to play in the NFL. Regardless, the evidence showed to me it was more likely than not Brady knew of the issue.
<< <i>
<< <i>So have you been fired yet? >>
Hopefully soon, so I can work on getting to 5,000 posts on a dead message board. >>
Can you translate?
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>
Can you translate? >>
Into what language?
<< <i>
<< <i>So have you been fired yet? >>
Hopefully soon, so I can work on getting to 5,000 posts on a dead message board. >>
It's my one goal in life.
Funny thing is, I didn't know how many posts I've made until your comment. And for the record, no, I don't think I'm an "expert collector" either. I just like to talk about cardboard, man. Pretty sure that's what this place is for.
<< <i>I just like to talk about cardboard, man. Pretty sure that's what this place is for. >>
If you'll notice, I was talking about the topic until you took a personal jab at me. Is that really what you're here for?
<< <i>
<< <i>So have you been fired yet? >>
Hopefully soon, so I can work on getting to 5,000 posts on a dead message board. >>
So why exactly are you here if this is a dead message board?
I find it so ironic when somebody makes a comment like this. They post on a message board but then takes shots at somebody else because they post more than them.
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<< <i>There is no question they took air out of the balls and the reason is because it works! They have texts from the equipment guys joking around that they are deflating, the balls themselves lost pressure but the Colts balls under the same conditions did not. The part to me that proves they know they did something illegal and covered it up - why did they suspend and fire the two equipment managers if nothing wrong was done. To me that is the clincher. >>
I'll preface this my saying I'm an eagles fan and hate the pats. That being said this is insanity. There is actually ZERO evidence the balls were even deflated and less than zero evidence that the quarterback deflated the balls. part of me feels that employer has the right to do what ever they want. But the mis information regarding this whole thing is out of control.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no question they took air out of the balls and the reason is because it works! They have texts from the equipment guys joking around that they are deflating, the balls themselves lost pressure but the Colts balls under the same conditions did not. The part to me that proves they know they did something illegal and covered it up - why did they suspend and fire the two equipment managers if nothing wrong was done. To me that is the clincher. >>
I'll preface this my saying I'm an eagles fan and hate the pats. That being said this is insanity. There is actually ZERO evidence the balls were even deflated and less than zero evidence that the quarterback deflated the balls. part of me feels that employer has the right to do what ever they want. But the mis information regarding this whole thing is out of control. >>
Quarterback obviously didn't deflate the balls, it was done for him and he certainly realized it had been done if in fact he wasn't "in on it".
ZERO evidence the balls were deflated!?!?!?!? Really? How can you say there is ZERO evidence the balls were deflated and in the next sentence say the quarterback didn't deflate them?
<< <i>zero evidence... Just circumstantial >>
Circumstantial evidence is evidence. It's in the name!
<< <i>Obviously Brady would never come out and say "I did it." The evidence I have seen was enough in my view to mete out the suspension.
And as others noted above, there is no inherent or constitutional right to play in the NFL. Regardless, the evidence showed to me it was more likely than not Brady knew of the issue. >>
Specifically, what evidence has you convinced?
<< <i>The smoking gun is not a discarded phone, the fact that they deflated the footballs, have text messages showing they did in fact plan to do this. Singularly all of those would be ok, but the problem here is that the Patriots have a culture of cheating and losing draft picks. Spy gate where they lost a first rounder, stealing of playbooks, and now Deflategate are evidence that this regime is a win at all costs group who think they are above the rules.
There is no question they took air out of the balls and the reason is because it works! They have texts from the equipment guys joking around that they are deflating, the balls themselves lost pressure but the Colts balls under the same conditions did not. The part to me that proves they know they did something illegal and covered it up - why did they suspend and fire the two equipment managers if nothing wrong was done. To me that is the clincher. >>
Cult-like hero worship won't allow some to see the facts. The whole organization has a record of being pretty shady. In my opinion, poor old Tom just hates the fact that his golden boy image has been striped and his legacy will forever have the word cheater associated with it.
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously Brady would never come out and say "I did it." The evidence I have seen was enough in my view to mete out the suspension.
And as others noted above, there is no inherent or constitutional right to play in the NFL. Regardless, the evidence showed to me it was more likely than not Brady knew of the issue. >>
Specifically, what evidence has you convinced? >>
I'm not convinced he knew, but he did use non-conforming balls. Just like baseball, it's not the person who corks the bat that pays the penalty- it's the player that use it in the game.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
That's evidence isn't it! After all, if the balls were properly inflated, that would have been the end of it..............right?
Or is there something I am missing here?
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
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Al
"Proof" --- evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true
There is lots of evidence. Your opinion likely spins on what threshold you set for proof.
In a court of law, you can be sentenced to *death* based on circumstantial evidence alone. That is a fact. Strong enough circumstantial evidence can persuade a jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" of guilt.
"Reasonable doubt" is the standard in criminal cases. In civil cases, courts use a "preponderance of evidence", which basically means "more likely than not". Again, a smoking gun is not required -- to be liable, it just has to be more likely than not that the accused is guilty.
This, a matter of internal employee discipline, isn't even a civil case.
<< <i>I am getting a little confused, actually I think it's others that are. I really don't care that much, but weren't the balls examined and they were all (except one) under the minimum air pressure?
>>
There was a false report of information reported by Chris Mortensen on ESPN from a league source, that said 11 of 12 Patriots' footballs were at least 2 PSI under the standard. That's what set this whole thing off - and it was FALSE INFORMATION, fed to the ESPN reporter, knowingly false, and was never corrected by the league. The NFL typically comes out and corrects any reports it believes false immediately, and it took until last week for Mortensen to delete his tweet about it. The Wells Report proved that report to be false as well.
Colts' balls also were underinflated at halftime. The ideal gas law dictates air pressure will drop in colder weather. It happened to both teams' balls. If the Colts' balls started at the upper end of the 12.5 - 13.5 range, they may have dropped to 12 - 12.5 and been in or just out of range. If Pats' balls started at 12.5, the cold weather may have caused them to drop to 11.5 - 12, just under range.
Do I think the Pats' guys may have had some involvement? I think it's possible - not definitely involving Brady, but the ball guys were told to get the balls on the low end of the scale. They may have taken things into their own hands to get a bit lower - and if they did, it's an equipment violation, so slap the team with a fine and be done with it.
What's going on now - tying up federal courts, seven months of leaks and investigations - is absolutely insane.
<< <i>I really don't care that much, but weren't the balls examined and they were all (except one) under the minimum air pressure? >>
According to the Wells report Page 12, 11 of 11 (the intercepted ball was never returned to the field) of the Pats balls at halftime were under minimum air pressure on both gauges while all the Colts balls tested were within spec on at least one of the gauges. Using only the high readings for each of the balls, the 4 Colts balls tested lost an average of about 0.25psi from their target of 13psi. Using the same for the Pats, the 11 lost an average of 0.92psi from their target of 12.5psi.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I'm by no means a Pats fan, but this has become nothing more than a witch hunt based on contrived and erroneous reports that suit the league and their vendetta vs the Patriots. I'm shocked this saga is still even playing out. It's almost Kraftkaesque. >>
Fixed it for ya
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm by no means a Pats fan, but this has become nothing more than a witch hunt based on contrived and erroneous reports that suit the league and their vendetta vs the Patriots. I'm shocked this saga is still even playing out. It's almost Kraftkaesque. >>
Fixed it for ya
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Topic; are Brady cards going up or down because of this? >>
I think this has been ignored by everyone so far, so in an attempt to get this back on track and out of the Sports Talk arena....
Quick check of completed listings of his Bowman Chrome rookie in PSA10 on eBay seems to show a downward trend. In May, most were in the $280 range with some outliers both lower and higher (several over $300, topping out around $370) while more recent sales are in the $250-260 range w/only PWCC & Probstein getting in the $300 range and topping out around $310.
ETA: I would think FB cards in general should be picking up right now with active pre-season games.
A) The following are all coincidental events, randomly aligning in a bit of cosmic injustice:
-- underinflated balls (that may or may not have been that way pre-game) used only by the Pats and not the Colts
-- widespread preexisting league rumors about the Pats purposefully deflating for competitive gain
-- text message exchanges with the lockerroom guys referring to themselves as "The Deflator"
-- Brady, at a minimum, not being totally forthcoming during the investigation
or
b) The Patriots, or at least someone in the organization, were deflating some balls on purpose.
We may well be resigned to never know *for sure* what happened. You're welcome to believe what you like. But, for me, it's Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is the correct one.
<< <i>prob because i live in New England and this all that is on sports talk radio.. i've become way more interested it than i should.. The issue i have with the stats that were referenced in the wells report is that there were no recordings of the pre game ball pressure.. they are just saying.. yeah every pats ball was 12.5 and every colts ball was 13... i find that hard to believe when the blakeman and prioleau measurements dont even match. This is basiacally where decided the whole thing is a joke. If you can't prove the balls were even deflated in the first place then i really don't get how you can prove or disprove if someone was involved in deflating it. at worst the nfl should have fined the pats like they fined the falcons for pumping in crowd noise.. and moved on. Make the rules regarding PSI more strict in 2016 and enforce it. >>
Exactly. 95% of the wells report is inadmissible in court. It makes for great theater, but you simply can't bring this kind of crap to a jury/judge without the defense running holes through it. As much as I hate the Pats, Brady represents the little guy whose been railroaded by his company/org, but he has the funds to fight back. Whether he deflated the balls or not means nothing; it's about sticking it an organization that determines discipline by the almighty dollar and pretends to be the moral compass of its' fan base. What started as deflategate is now about two entities positioning their brand for the best exposure.
Goodell is going to lose because he wants to. He saves face by having the judge overturn the suspension, he loses money when Brady doesn't play. The longer this takes, the better hand Brady has.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Either:
A) The following are all coincidental events, randomly aligning in a bit of cosmic injustice:
-- underinflated balls (that may or may not have been that way pre-game) used only by the Pats and not the Colts
-- widespread preexisting league rumors about the Pats purposefully deflating for competitive gain
-- text message exchanges with the lockerroom guys referring to themselves as "The Deflator"
-- Brady, at a minimum, not being totally forthcoming during the investigation
or
b) The Patriots, or at least someone in the organization, were deflating some balls on purpose.
We may well be resigned to never know *for sure* what happened. You're welcome to believe what you like. But, for me, it's Occam's Razor: the simplest solution is the correct one. >>
The problem is the idea that the pats are being accused of deflating balls after they were submitted to the officials. I think it's much more likely they just submit softballs to begin with since it was never really enforced. That seems to me to be the most obvious explanation. Did Brady tell the equipment guys he likes soft balls? I'm sure he did. But that's much much different than him telling the equipment guys to deflate the balls after they are submitted. I was sick of listening about deflate gate on sports talk radio but I would so much rather listen to that than the story that replaced it. Good luck to Farrell and his family
<< <i>
<< <i>I am getting a little confused, actually I think it's others that are. I really don't care that much, but weren't the balls examined and they were all (except one) under the minimum air pressure?
>>
There was a false report of information reported by Chris Mortensen on ESPN from a league source, that said 11 of 12 Patriots' footballs were at least 2 PSI under the standard. That's what set this whole thing off - and it was FALSE INFORMATION, fed to the ESPN reporter, knowingly false, and was never corrected by the league. The NFL typically comes out and corrects any reports it believes false immediately, and it took until last week for Mortensen to delete his tweet about it. The Wells Report proved that report to be false as well.
Colts' balls also were underinflated at halftime. The ideal gas law dictates air pressure will drop in colder weather. It happened to both teams' balls. If the Colts' balls started at the upper end of the 12.5 - 13.5 range, they may have dropped to 12 - 12.5 and been in or just out of range. If Pats' balls started at 12.5, the cold weather may have caused them to drop to 11.5 - 12, just under range.
Do I think the Pats' guys may have had some involvement? I think it's possible - not definitely involving Brady, but the ball guys were told to get the balls on the low end of the scale. They may have taken things into their own hands to get a bit lower - and if they did, it's an equipment violation, so slap the team with a fine and be done with it.
What's going on now - tying up federal courts, seven months of leaks and investigations - is absolutely insane. >>
"According to the Wells report Page 12, 11 of 11 (the intercepted ball was never returned to the field) of the Pats balls at halftime were under minimum air pressure on both gauges while all the Colts balls tested were within spec on at least one of the gauges. Using only the high readings for each of the balls, the 4 Colts balls tested lost an average of about 0.25psi from their target of 13psi. Using the same for the Pats, the 11 lost an average of 0.92psi from their target of 12.5psi."
Seems to be conflicting stories here!?!?!?
Growing up in Minnesota, I used to think that Packers fans were totally delusional (some of the teams were great though), now I am thinking the Patriots fans are putting them to shame.
The Patriots admitted that “employees John Jastremski and James McNally have been indefinitely suspended without pay by the club, effective on May 6th.”
Jastremski was an assistant equipment man with the team, and a full-time employee, while McNally was a game-day attendant for the officials locker room, and the self-described “Deflator.”
Why would these guys be suspended if the balls were not tampered with and why would they deflate them unless they were told to do so? I am tired of all the whining about Brady's punishment while these guys are out of a job.
I for one think Brady and the rest of you in "Patriot Nation" should accept the punishment, stop cheating, and move on. You might even win another Super Bowl and be able to rub that in everyone's faces.
<< <i>Exactly. 95% of the wells report is inadmissible in court. >>
You do know that no one is admitting evidence in an appeals hearing, right? You've got to stop watching Law and Order. This isn't the kind of procedure that you're thinking of.
The NBA, NHL and MLB have to be furious at Goodell. He single handedly established a map for suspended players to navigate; all in the name of whether a ball was deflated or not. Very poor risk assessment by NFL. Even if they won, they lost.
The judge couldn't have said it better; Goodell dishing out his own brand of industrial justice.
Now, does NFL go all-in with an appeal? I'm putting the odds of this NOT happening at 95%.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Breaking news: organizations do not have to follow courtroom rules of evidence. >>
Breaking news: you can't see the forrest through the trees.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Yes. I'm closing in on 5,000 personal jabs. Planning to get a plaque made to hang on the wall. My favorite jab was telling somebody "welcome to Earth" because they made a joke about a mascot. Oh wait, that wasn't me. Who was it?? >>
Congratulations!!
<< <i>Thanks Mullins!! I worked hard on this, day after day, week after week. I'm constantly checking my post count, waiting to hit the next thousand. I remember when I hit 4900, I was like, "how quickly can I get to 5K?!?" I doubled my efforts with one goal in mind. Feels so good to achieve it. My life is now complete. >>
I'm afraid the commissioner is reviewing your claim of "5000 jabs". That total seems to be... inflated. Gonna need proof of at least one jab per post. No throwing away the phone either.
<< <i>Dan's been conspiring with a locker room attendant known widely as "The Jabber". >>
We appeal on the grounds that we did much more jibbing and far less jabbing.