Trimming cards; how much is too much

Sdub

1/16"? 1/32"? 1/64"? 1/96? before grading firms catch it?

Thread here recently outed a seller for trimming cards. Looking at VCP, that seller has sold some HIGH dollar cards.

More importantly, we are buying these cards over the internet based on scans, even when magnified, that do not have the finite level of measurement to detect this.

StamkosFan

This will poof by Monday.

grote15

For vintage cards at least, it's not so much the size of the card as it is the edge that is used to determine if a card is trimmed (or sheet cut). Any amount of alteration with regard to trimming is too much IMO..

Sdub

<< <i>This will poof by Monday. >>



I'm confused. I'm just asking a question. Why would that bother CU?

mikeschmidt

Sdub:

There's no easy answer to your question. Grading companies should be able to catch it, no matter how much or how little has been trimmed from the card.

There are many, many issues that are notorious for having wide size variances. T206 and 1955 Bowman baseball are both issues that come to top of mind.

If you have an oversized 1955 Bowman baseball card that has been trimmed, and still measures standard size, if not bigger, the grading company should catch it each and every time. The strict measurement of the card ought *not* be the only factor in determining trimming.

In fact, this is why PSA has the "Min. Size Requirement" designation. If you submit a trimmed card, you will pay the grading fees and get your raw card back. If you submit a factory cut undersized card, you will get the raw card back and a credit so you do not pay the grading fee.

slum22

I agree with the posters above. I am by no means an expert on this topic. However, in talking with people who know more than me, my understanding is that the appearance of a factory cut edge will look different than a card that has been trimmed aftermarket. I believe this is largely because the tools used by the card companies to cut their sheets is generally different than the tools that most people trimming cards use. A qualified grader should be able to identify this difference regardless of card size (as mentioned by mikeschmidt).

timpatg

<< <i> A qualified grader should be able to identify this difference regardless of card size (as mentioned by mikeschmidt). >>



Normally my sarcasm detector would be blinking but I think you are serious. I have subbed 100s of cards that went straight from packs to PSA and came back EOT. I have also seen hundreds of sheet cut OPC cards in PSA holders. Beckett is even worse. If you sent them a video of you trimming the card they would still probably slab it a 9.5.

slum22

Yes, I was being serious. I think we all can find bones to pick within the outcomes of any sub, but by and large I think they get it right more often than not. As for BGS, I don't know their policy on sheet cut cards, but I believe I read in the past that they allowed it. If that is the case then as the buyer you just have to know this.

mtcards

Although I agree this thread will be gone by Monday, it does bring up an interesting question. If you have a card the is gem mint straight from the pack and say, a card like the one that started the thread that both still measures up correctly, from a pure "how the card looks" standpoint, is there really a difference? Is one card worth less (or worthless) just because it wasnt originally cut by the manufacturer event though it is the same EXACT card? The same question can be asked if your card was a ----hair smaller than a regular card regardless of whether or not it came out of the pack that way? I think we can all agree that pulling a card straight from the pack, judging it to be mint or even gem mint, sending it in for grading and it comes back as EOT can be the most frustrating thing, especially given there is NO EVIDENCE of TRIMMING other than perhaps the size.

Sdub

<< <i>Although I agree this thread will be gone by Monday, it does bring up an interesting question. If you have a card the is gem mint straight from the pack and say, a card like the one that started the thread that both still measures up correctly, from a pure "how the card looks" standpoint, is there really a difference? Is one card worth less (or worthless) just because it wasnt originally cut by the manufacturer event though it is the same EXACT card? The same question can be asked if your card was a ----hair smaller than a regular card regardless of whether or not it came out of the pack that way? I think we can all agree that pulling a card straight from the pack, judging it to be mint or even gem mint, sending it in for grading and it comes back as EOT can be the most frustrating thing, especially given there is NO EVIDENCE of TRIMMING other than perhaps the size. >>



Certainly not intending to blame TPG's. They have a tough job as it stands trying to police alterations.

I had always thought "trimmed" meant the card was marginally smaller than standard size. However, poster has noted a "trimmed" card could be the same size if it was oversized to begin with. It appears that a better indicator for trimming is the edge of the card, not the size. It sounds like trimmers do not use the same cutting presses that Topps uses, and so the edge is the evidence, not the size?

And on point, the poster above noted having several cards rejected due to EOT, which is based on size, not edge cuts, for cards coming right from packs. We clearly know Topps had a dimensional margin of error when printing baseball cards. Knowing what this margin of error is for each year would be important during grading, would it not?

grote15

Virtually all of the cards I submit to PSA for grading are from 1970s packs I've opened over the years, and I can't recall the last time I got an EOT card sent back. I do, however, get an average of a couple MINSIZERQ cards sent back, particularly with the naturally short red/yellow and green/yellow 75 minis, which are not charged to your account.

3BoyzTrading

If we are talking about modern cards, it's going to be almost impossible for the grading companies to tell. I guarantee that laser cutting technology is being used by the factory and the trimmer. The only way it seems people are able to tell are on serial numbered cards where there is a picture of a rough edge and then a newer pic of a gem specimen.