What happened with bringing the National out West?

Mefer · August 6, 2015 3:57AM

I've enjoyed the multiple threads on the National. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend for a variety of reasons including the fact I live in California. Back in the day, the National would bounce back and forth amongst different locations throughout the nation. Now, it seems to spend most years in Chicago (great if that works for you!). The last one I attended was in 2006 in Anaheim. I had a great time and it seemed to be well attended.

I can only assume the powers that be have determined a west coast location is not feasible and/or profitable. Sadly, this does not appear to be changing anytime soon as the National seems to be rotating through a few select locations:

2016 - Atlantic City Convention Center - Atlantic City NJ

2017 - Donald E Stephens Convention Center - Rosemont IL

2018 - International Exposition (I-X) Center - Cleveland, OH

2019 - Donald E Stephens Convention Center Rosemont IL

Gosh, I wish this would change. Where can I file my "discrimination" lawsuit?

Matt

lawnmowerman · August 6, 2015 4:05AM

If you say Natty three times it will come.

Mefer · August 6, 2015 4:11AM

I would but I have lost my ruby red slippers...

cpamike · August 6, 2015 4:16AM

<< If you say Natty three times it will come. >>

I see what you did there.

lawnmowerman · August 6, 2015 4:36AM

Lol!

Btw, I would love the National to come to Florida, as would everyone that would travel here for it. It's not a world renowned vacation destination for nothing.

pdub1819 · August 6, 2015 4:37AM

As another Californian (who lives in Fullerton...5 miles from Anaheim), I too would hope/wish/pray that the National comes out west. But this conversation has happened before on these boards and from what I remember Anahiem does not allow for dates to be secured far enough in advance. In addittion, many of the dealers who set up at the National are from east of the Mississippi and the cost of transporting their goods accross the country is cost prohibitive.

That being said...can they throw us a bone? If not Anaheim, how about San Diego (Comic Con does extremely well), San Fransico, or even Vegas (If it can work in AC, then it can work in Vegas!)

#JustSaying

PDub

bjbrall4 · August 6, 2015 5:07AM

How about Phoenix? The University of Phoenix Stadium holds all types of shows, though I don't know the lease terms. Plenty of hotels and entertainment in the Glendale/Westgate area, along with Sky Harbor, "America's Friendliest Airport". And in July we have that 110-115 degree weather.

vintagefun · August 6, 2015 5:17AM

Hell...I'd be happy with Denver or Austin. Anything on the west side of the Mississippi

grote15 · August 6, 2015 5:29AM

<< If you say Matty three times it will come. >>

Fixed it for you.

LarkinCollector · August 6, 2015 5:54AM

<< How about Phoenix? The University of Phoenix Stadium holds all types of shows, though I don't know the lease terms. Plenty of hotels and entertainment in the Glendale/Westgate area, along with Sky Harbor, "America's Friendliest Airport". And in July we have that 110-115 degree weather. >>

+1, it would be nice to have one local

The Austin (or San Antonio), Denver, and Vegas mentions would be cool as well. Cali would be OK, with hotel prices and traffic being the main drawbacks.

BunchOBull · August 6, 2015 6:02AM

Dallas or Houston would be smart IMO.

PSASAP · August 6, 2015 8:34AM

Chicago is the best compromise between the East and West coasts, plus there are great restaurants, two MLB teams, and a good transportation system into the city. Of course, everyone wants it in their own backyard, for obvious reasons, but I say Chicago is the location that makes the most sense, and makes the fewest people unhappy.

Stone193 · August 6, 2015 8:48AM

I could ask for Texas but it was there and the dealers weren't happy if I remember correctly?

I think it was 1995 in Houston?

They ever have it in San Antonio? Dinner's on me!

Griffins · August 6, 2015 9:59AM

<< I could ask for Texas but it was there and the dealers weren't happy if I remember correctly?

I think it was 1995 in Houston?

They ever have it in San Antonio? Dinner's on me! >>

at least it won't be freezing then!

MrNearMint · August 6, 2015 10:28AM

No love for Portland?

sdsalezman · August 6, 2015 11:39AM

I don't mean to be a downer but I wouldn't be surprised if Atlantic City (and possibly even Cleveland) is giving financial incentives to the promoters of the National so that the convention happens in their city. Atlantic City is desperate for tourism dollars with all the casinos closing. Chances are that will never happen in Anaheim, San Diego, San Francisco or Las Vegas as they're in much better financial shape.

Stone193 · August 6, 2015 12:19PM

<< 

<< I could ask for Texas but it was there and the dealers weren't happy if I remember correctly?

I think it was 1995 in Houston?

They ever have it in San Antonio? Dinner's on me! >>

at least it won't be freezing then! >>

Good one Anthony!

I remember our dinner at the River Walk - we froze!

Missed you at the National buddy.

Ripken · August 7, 2015 6:58AM

Mike Berkus addressed locations in this Q&A last year here.

Mefer · August 7, 2015 7:12AM

<< Mike Berkus addressed locations in this Q&A last year here. >>

Had not seen this. Adds some insight. Thanks!

Griffins · August 7, 2015 2:25PM

It's BS. They won't have it anywhere that isn't rock bottom cheap. The show keeps getting smaller and smaller and it's a race to the bottom.
The national has had different promoters over the years, this group needs to be replaced.

Mefer · August 7, 2015 3:04PM

<< It's BS. They won't have it anywhere that isn't rock bottom cheap. The show keeps getting smaller and smaller and it's a race to the bottom.
The national has had different promoters over the years, this group needs to be replaced. >>

I can't say if this is true or not. However, after reading up more, I suspect it is the bigger dealers that drive the location and I can see not wanting to transport inventory further than necessary. In any event, I would still like to see it make it out west again.

bziddy · August 7, 2015 3:48PM

<< Chicago is the best compromise between the East and West coasts, plus there are great restaurants, two MLB teams, and a good transportation system into the city. Of course, everyone wants it in their own backyard, for obvious reasons, but I say Chicago is the location that makes the most sense, and makes the fewest people unhappy. >>

I think Dallas makes a bit more sense. Chicago is 2000 miles away from California cities, about 1300+ from Florida and 800+ from the east coast. Dallas is about 1300-1400 miles away from all these cities (Boston is a hike at near 1800 miles). It just seems a bit more central without dropping it in S. California or Vegas (locations which I am totally okay with).

I understand that there are other forces at play here, just an observation.

ChiefsFan1st · August 7, 2015 4:43PM

I like Dallas also. But I am biased, I have family there. Good excuse for a vacation to visit the cousins

Im also biased towards Kansas City

Nearly the center of the nation you know

I was told at the last Natty (In
Cleveland), that K.C. was off the table because it lacked hotel/motel space to accomidate enough people. Dont know
if there is any truth to that. I get it that K.C. is kinda a small market "Big City" so to speak.

I also would like, if they move it west, Seattle. Mostly because I just gotta see that place before they put me under.

x2drich2000 · August 7, 2015 8:04PM

I put this list together for a different forum but I think it really speaks to one of the reasons the national has not been out west. This list shows what states dealers came from for this year's national (taken from the NSCC website - NSCC dealer list). With less than 15% coming from the west coast, and the added time and expenses for dealers on the east coast to travel, I can see it being a big risk to have the show out west.

East 92 - 29.3%
CT 7
DE 1
MA 4
MD 6
ME 2
NH 1
NJ 22
NY 28
PA 19
VT 2

Mid 100 - 31.9%
IA 4
IL 35
IN 9
KY 2
MI 13
MN 8
MO 8
OH 12
WI 9

North 6 - 1.9%
CAN 3
Cana 3

South 73 - 23.3%
AR 3
FL 20
GA 9
LA 1
NC 13
TN 5
TX 12
VA 10

West 43 - 13.7%
AZ 6
CA 18
CO 4
ID 1
KS 2
ND 1
NE 1
NM 1
NV 3
OK 3
OR 1
WA 2

Grand Total 314

pdub1819 · August 7, 2015 9:04PM

<< I put this list together for a different forum but I think it really speaks to one of the reasons the national has not been out west. This list shows what states dealers came from for this year's national (taken from the NSCC website - NSCC dealer list). With less than 15% coming from the west coast, and the added time and expenses for dealers on the east coast to travel, I can see it being a big risk to have the show out west.

East 92 - 29.3%
CT 7
DE 1
MA 4
MD 6
ME 2
NH 1
NJ 22
NY 28
PA 19
VT 2

Mid 100 - 31.9%
IA 4
IL 35
IN 9
KY 2
MI 13
MN 8
MO 8
OH 12
WI 9

North 6 - 1.9%
CAN 3
Cana 3

South 73 - 23.3%
AR 3
FL 20
GA 9
LA 1
NC 13
TN 5
TX 12
VA 10

West 43 - 13.7%
AZ 6
CA 18
CO 4
ID 1
KS 2
ND 1
NE 1
NM 1
NV 3
OK 3
OR 1
WA 2

Grand Total 314 >>

Do you think this list is accurate due to the fact that the National has been closer to the eat coast? Would those numbers be exactly opposite with it on the west coast with more west coast dealers? Just curious, as I don't know how many dealers there are on the west coast.

bziddy · August 7, 2015 10:04PM

<< Do you think this list is accurate due to the fact that the National has been closer to the eat coast? Would those numbers be exactly opposite with it on the west coast with more west coast dealers? Just curious, as I don't know how many dealers there are on the west coast. >>

I would agree that the west coast representation is likely lower because of location (who knows how much). Will be interesting to see how the numbers skew next year in AC. Wonder if the west coast representation shrinks even more. I understand there comes a point for a dealer where it becomes cost prohibitive to load up and trek to a convention.

HeadsUp38 · August 7, 2015 11:32PM

<< It's BS. They won't have it anywhere that isn't rock bottom cheap. The show keeps getting smaller and smaller and it's a race to the bottom.
The national has had different promoters over the years, this group needs to be replaced.[/q

I agree with Griffins. Every year people complain about the National not coming to the West and every year the promoter says the same thing. Apparently collectors are not buying his reasoning. A lot of people suggest Phoenix, Los Angeles, Seattle, Las Vegas, Denver, Dallas, San Diego, San Francisco and the response is as if Anaheim is the only western location considered and that won't be done. The dealers vote is a main component, but there are other biases at work in the decision.

While I enjoy the National like other collectors, the incentives to not attend are growing. High prices, too many auction houses previewing items, high admission costs, selection(not much stuff from the junk era) due to high table fees. I attended the Chicago National a few years' ago and no one had a 1990 Leaf Frank Thomas RC for sale. This was once a key card and I couldn't find one--in Chicago no less.

I don't know why the National needs to be planned so far ahead compared to other industry shows. I've never been to a Sun Times Show yet, but it seems that show isn't that much smaller, but the fees and admission costs are that much lower. The National used to be 1000-1200 tables, now it's about 700. Wouldn't more dealer tables offset the costs? Put the cheap guys way in back somewhere?

I think the hobby will always be there and the National will return to the West eventually, but the promoter will need to change and the dynamics with it is as well. Regarding just the card tables, the recent Nationals I've attended look pretty much like it did when I was attending in the 90s. Lots of vintage pre-1980(good for me as a vintage collector), but 30 years' later not a whole lot from 1995-2005. I would think a national convention should have a good balance of selection, but that is not the case.(I get costs are the main reason).

Griffins · August 7, 2015 11:41PM

I don't think that that survey is necessarily correct. I know a few people that have booths every year that are sublet from dealers that have dropped out, but they keep their priority info. How many times do you go to a booth and there are a case or two that belongs to someone else?

If the national moved around it bit it would bring out more stuff from attics, and attract more collectors. The hard core guys will travel regardless, the question is the people that are sort of interested and dabble a bit. Being at a National can really be the impetus to be more active in the hobby. But it's tough to get the casual collector to decide to go to Cleveland every few years, stay in the middle of no where with few places to eat, and deal with a ferris wheel and blasting band in order to fill in a few holes in some sets and start a new one. I wish the people that vote to keep things the way they are (and from the people I've talked to, there are less than stated and the vote is merely an advisory that the promoters promptly ignore) will keep in mind that they are narrowing their customer base.

60sfan · August 8, 2015 4:54AM

Someone could hold a big show on the West Coast the week after the Super Bowl..........that's about six months before/after the National..........based on the posts on this board it seems like there's a lot of interest in a West Coast show.

Mefer · August 8, 2015 5:26AM

There is nothing quite like a show and I miss them (that is another thread for another time). The National is the last and best available it seems. I know when I went to the Anaheim show I dropped a mint as, well, there was eye candy everywhere. My wife was with me and witnessed it and we are still married so I at least had implicit authorization...

Matt

ClockworkAngel · August 8, 2015 5:46AM

I know the National that has been held in Anaheim in the past have been pretty successful, but from what I recall, the Anaheim Convention Center and the promoters did not exactly become BFF's the last time it was here.I do know Anaheim has some funky rules and conditions that they can get away with because they are neighbors with Mickey Mouse and it's such a hot spot to pick, but maybe the Natty promoters are a little more stubborn in that way.

Las Vegas sounds obvious, but I think the promoters want to keep with the idea that this is a hobby for kids thing and maybe Vegas isn't as family friendly as they would prefer. Then again, they are doing Atlantic City in 2016 and that city makes Las Vegas look like Beverly Hills. I don't get that one. Atlantic City is just.....ugly. Vegas has it's ugly spots, but plenty of great spots, even for kids

San Diego would be amazing. ComicCon's yearly success can speak to that.

Regardless, it's not so cool for us West Coasters. I would think it would be a bit more appealing for East Coasters to come to SoCal in August rather than vice versa.

basketballcollector · August 8, 2015 6:34AM

There was a vote for the 2016 National between Anaheim and Atlantic City. Many of the dealers voted Atlantic City (which won the vote of course) since the dealers (more east coast dealers than west coast dealers voted) didn't want the west coast site. The reason Atlantic City was even considered (vs Anaheim) in this last vote was because basically the National show promoters will pay next to nothing for the Atlantic City convention center for next years National.

I heard the 2003 National was horrible for dealers according to what most of the dealers honestly said. But, they were willing to try it again in 2016. So Atlantic City is going to be 2016. The short version is that the National will rotate between Chicago and Cleveland for the next 15 or so years with a NEW or DIFFERENT city on occasion every 3 or so years. Other cities such as St. louis, Kansas City, Dallas, etc,... have been mentioned as those on occasion cities.

slum22 · August 8, 2015 7:45AM

Regardless, it's not so cool for us West Coasters. I would think it would be a bit more appealing for East Coasters to come to SoCal in August rather than vice versa. >>

Or September, October, November, December... Seriously, if Anaheim and Vegas have to many restrictions, what about San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle? Plenty of options that are every bit as qualified to hold an event as the current rotation.

pdub1819 · August 8, 2015 10:59AM

It just sucks to hold a vote when you are not letting the dealers (from the west coast) have a say.

Sdub · August 8, 2015 1:04PM

<< Someone could hold a big show on the West Coast the week after the Super Bowl..........that's about six months before/after the National..........based on the posts on this board it seems like there's a lot of interest in a West Coast show. >>

I'm in if someone puts a show out West.

Sdub · August 8, 2015 1:12PM

<< Regardless, it's not so cool for us West Coasters. I would think it would be a bit more appealing for East Coasters to come to SoCal in August rather than vice versa. >>

Or September, October, November, December... Seriously, if Anaheim and Vegas have to many restrictions, what about San Diego, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle? Plenty of options that are every bit as qualified to hold an event as the current rotation. >>

I would love to have the Natty out west. I was shocked to see the locations for the last few years and the next 4 years are all East of Mississippi.

However, let's just rule San Francisco out now. Hotels are over $400 a night and the ransom that city will extract for the "privilege" of holding your convention there has to be gynormous. San Jose, more sense. Oakland, up and coming, but still scares people. San Diego, also expensive, about 1/2x of SF, but 2x AC. Seattle, not likely. Portland, not known as a convention center. Anaheim, Arizona; yes/yes.

sdsalezman · August 8, 2015 1:24PM

A few other west coast (western) cities not mentioned so far that i'd consider going to are Long Beach (CA), Phoenix and Denver. Note: Pretty sure PSA has had some experience witb Long Beach

Griffins · August 8, 2015 1:53PM

<< 

<< Someone could hold a big show on the West Coast the week after the Super Bowl..........that's about six months before/after the National..........based on the posts on this board it seems like there's a lot of interest in a West Coast show. >>

I'm in if someone puts a show out West. >>

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for smaller shows out here. Some friends and I put on 3 shows last year and the year before, and interest was so long we didn't bother going further. Too many other things to do I guess.
The Long Beach show isn't a card show- it's a coin show with a few tables of cards. When coins were huge they didn't want cards, and only opened it up when the show shrank. As it is there isn't much point in going to see 5 tables of cards that are super common.

gemint · August 8, 2015 3:16PM

Why bother catering to CA? It's only the 8th largest economy in the world.

grote15 · August 8, 2015 3:18PM

<< Why bother catering to CA? It's only the 8th largest economy in the world. >>

And yet the early NFL games on Sundays still start at 10 am.

seebelow · August 8, 2015 5:35PM

has it ever been held on the west coast? if so, how did it go?

also, as far as an extra 500-1000 miles difference isn't as important to me as is non-stop flights to whichever city. i def rule out some cities if i have to have one or more layovers for something like a convention....unless its tropical with beaches and a crystal blue ocean. I'm primarily a customer so other "accoutrements" are important to me. Otherwise i can generally wait another year or two for a more desirable city...chicago vs atlantic city? meh

i think a close example of apples to apples is comicon in san diego....seems to do very well. it's tucked away in a corner of the country yet still has a large customer and dealer base.

HeadsUp38 · August 9, 2015 12:03AM

<< 

<< 

<< Someone could hold a big show on the West Coast the week after the Super Bowl..........that's about six months before/after the National..........based on the posts on this board it seems like there's a lot of interest in a West Coast show. >>

I'm in if someone puts a show out West. >>

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of support for smaller shows out here. Some friends and I put on 3 shows last year and the year before, and interest was so long we didn't bother going further. Too many other things to do I guess.
The Long Beach show isn't a card show- it's a coin show with a few tables of cards. When coins were huge they didn't want cards, and only opened it up when the show shrank. As it is there isn't much point in going to see 5 tables of cards that are super common. >>

This is what happens when the collector base shrinks. SoCal has a large market in terms of population, but when the collecting dollars started to wane some years' ago, the promoters gave up doing shows and only the hard core guys were left. In order for show attendance to rise again, we'll probably have to start over--like whatever they did in the 70s and early 80s. Our hobby in general has not done well with self promotion or social media like the comic book guys. I believe Rich Klein is trying to revive the shows in Texas. Frank and Sons in City of Industry kind of took over as the card show presence in SoCal, but there are only about 10 card dealers and they told me they don't do that great.

The last National in Anaheim was promoted so poorly that some guys on here from SoCal said they did not even know the National was held in Anaheim at that last date. The dates were HOF induction weekend so no baseball players were signing hurting the show even more. If promoters want to kill off a site, they can definitely do so at will simply by negligence and that's what happened. The previous Anaheim Nationals were promoted well and therefore very successful.

sdsalezman · August 9, 2015 2:08AM

From a true show standpoint, NAXCOM was running shows at Hollywood Park for years until their decision to focus on becoming the next eBay. Since they went out of business, there hasn't been a regular show in the LA market. The only regular large sized show for sports collectibles in CA is the TriStar show in San Francisco. IMO, Frank and Son is more like a glorified swap meet these days than a true sports card and autograph show.

Stingray · August 9, 2015 9:08AM

<< I like Dallas also. But I am biased, I have family there. Good excuse for a vacation to visit the cousins

Im also biased towards Kansas City

Nearly the center of the nation you know

I was told at the last Natty (In
Cleveland), that K.C. was off the table because it lacked hotel/motel space to accomidate enough people. Dont know
if there is any truth to that. I get it that K.C. is kinda a small market "Big City" so to speak.

I also would like, if they move it west, Seattle. Mostly because I just gotta see that place before they put me under. >>

I live in Michigan, so Chicago and Cleveland are great for me, but K.C. would be good. Need to get to Kauffman Stadium for a game once in my life.

What happened with bringing the National out West?

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