My National Ripping Experience
Nikklos
Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭
This is all I managed to come home with from the National. Sure. plenty of stuff was ripped too quick to survive the journey. But still pickings were slim this year as far as vintage unopened.
I planned to focus this year on 1970 cellos and 1970-1976 racks exclusively. There were none to be found. Someone had a sad-looking random 1976 rack but I couldn't get a deal done.
One thing of note were that there were plenty of 1978 and 1979 Topps baseball rack trays scattered throughout the show. Two years ago, they were non-existent. Wasn;t going to buy any but then I got a good deal on a couple of '79 trays at $100 a pop.
Yes, there is shiny stuff in that picture. It's becoming a guilty pleasure.
Will post some rip highlights to this thread.
Oh and I ripped a 1962 Topps baseball cello and a (dubious) 1971 Topps baseball rack. I'll post those separately if anyone is interested.
Nikklos
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Comments
In 2011, I bought a 1970 Topps 5th/6th/7th series baseball wax box for roughly $7500. Even then, I wasn't making any profit ripping it. Today they would be asking $40000 for that box. You do the math.
That being said, the one that BBCE had at National was on consignment, and it was the consignor who
set the price (which based on any comparable public sales information from the last few years was at
least 50%-60% above what any reasonably informed collector would have been willing to pay).
If you go through the eBay completed listings you will find what appears to be the same box when it was
listed at $39,000. The same seller had previously listed that box at $43k I believe.
We experienced a 2x-3x jump in the market between about 2012-2015 on most of the 1970s unopened
product. It was the 1973 and later years that were closer to 3x, while 1970/1972 were more like 2x-2.5x
(1971 is a rarity and I would exclude it, as they come up so infrequently that they will probably move
independently of the rest of the decade). That puts the series 5/6/7 box you got for $7500 in the range
of $15k-18.5k now if it still existed.
Dave
Here are the better cards scanned to check which ones are suitable for grading.
The '79 trays yielded only two cards I would consider sending in. They are on the tougher side.
Schmidt, Brock, Rose and Seaver were not only all in one rack - they were all in one CELL of one rack!
I may not have the keen eye of a PSA grader, but Seaver is just plain, flat-out ridiculous!!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
I recall that Schmidt-Brock-Rose-Seaver sequence in the 78 rack~a stellar run if intact!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Scans to assess grading suitability...
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Great stuff. Lots of worthy card submissions in those packs.
Nice catching up with you at the Natty as always Chris.
Oh yeah, hi Matt.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
And that wraps up the 1978 racks...hang on folks, more to come. Hmm which to post next?
Nice catching uo with you Mike!!
<< <i>Well done, especially on those 1978 racks. Some really nice cards there.
Nice catching up with you at the Natty as always Chris.
Oh yeah, hi Matt.
Haha..well done sir lol
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Too bad about the centering. Still nice! What a thrill!
I believe Garvey is a tough card, as well.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I was so excited to see a 1971 rack that I made a deal and took a flyer.
Yes I know it has the controversial header card.
I brought it on over to the BBCE booth where two preeminent authorities - Steve Hart and CPA Mike - both expressed grave misgivings about its authenticity.
Frankly, I have never opened a 1971 anything. I don't know what they're supposed to look like out of the pack. Never subbed them. They are definitely before my time and all I ever had was hand-me-downs and weak examples purchased at shows. I was black magic markering the corners long before it became en vogue - rendering my collection valueless.
But I love the cards and wish unopened was more plentiful.
I'm gonna post some pics. If there is any card anybody thinks is worth grading. I would love to hear!
Personally I think Mayberry looks pretty good actually.
Good luck with this pack if you decide to open it (like there's any doubt that you won't open it...lol). While I
did not examine it personally or even see it, my initial impression from your photo is that the seams are not
right (too narrow) for a 54-card rack pack (so I guess I am in agreement with both Steve and Mike).
The header card is barely a "yellow" flag compared to the seals. I have personally opened "regular" header
card 1971 packs, as have other knowledgeable board members, where some serious stars that graded out
very high (8s, 8.5s and 9s) were found.
If you can, keep track of the sequence of the cards in each cell and publish it and we may be able to compare
it to the known sequences to help understand whether this pack is/is not dubious.
Dave
I do believe there are legitimate 71 racks with player header cards, and Moran has proven that, but I believe they are also too easily faked, which is illustrated by the huge disparity between these racks and those with the Topps yellow header card and product code. In any case, they certainly weren't for retail sale.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Sorry guys I didn't keep the sequence. I have resigned myself to the rack being no good but would be thrilled to salvage anything worth grading. Not sure how high the threshold is for "non-black corners". >>
The threshold is extremely low. Multiple corners with ANY white showing =7 at best.
<< <i>Two things that would give me pause about that 71 rack besides the player header card. One, the header card bears a cross hatch punch hole which Topps did not begin uising till 4th series in 1971, and second, the seams between sections don't appear correct for a 71 rack.
I do believe there are legitimate 71 racks with player header cards, and Moran has proven that, but I believe they are also too easily faked, which is illustrated by the huge disparity between these racks and those with the Topps yellow header card and product code. In any case, they certainly weren't for retail sale. >>
I don't think I have ever seen a "regular card" header 1971 rack that didn't have a cross-hatch punch. I've certainly never seen one
with the die-cut circle. While I can confirm what Tim said about the cross-hatch punch beginning officially with 1971 series 4, I could
not definitively rule out a 1971 rack like this based on that criteria.
The incorrect seams are the primary factor that would have set off my radar.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>Two things that would give me pause about that 71 rack besides the player header card. One, the header card bears a cross hatch punch hole which Topps did not begin uising till 4th series in 1971, and second, the seams between sections don't appear correct for a 71 rack.
I do believe there are legitimate 71 racks with player header cards, and Moran has proven that, but I believe they are also too easily faked, which is illustrated by the huge disparity between these racks and those with the Topps yellow header card and product code. In any case, they certainly weren't for retail sale. >>
I don't think I have ever seen a "regular card" header 1971 rack that didn't have a cross-hatch punch. I've certainly never seen one
with the die-cut circle. While I can confirm what Tim said about the cross-hatch punch beginning officially with 1971 series 4, I could
not definitively rule out a 1971 rack like this based on that criteria.
The incorrect seams are the primary factor that would have set off my radar. >>
The series 1 71 rack with player header card that Moran ripped had a circular punch hole (though the circular hole is smaller than those found on the yellow Topps header cards). That rack was definitely legitimate as the cards also followed correct sequence and placement on the sheet. IIRC, he pulled two Roses from that rack, one that graded PSA 8 and another that graded 9OC.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Congrats on some stellar rips. Love the Garveys. Sweet 78s. Brett. Wow.
Too bad on the 71s. It doesn't look like it's the first time they've seen the light of day. Oh well.
I gambled on a 76 FB pack that Steve wasn't sure on and hit Payton and Too Tall RCs in the same pack.
Kudos on your fortitude and risk acceptance.
Always dig your threads.
Continued success.
Jim
Let's be sure to meet up at the National in AC next year! We can share war stories!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Two things that would give me pause about that 71 rack besides the player header card. One, the header card bears a cross hatch punch hole which Topps did not begin uising till 4th series in 1971, and second, the seams between sections don't appear correct for a 71 rack.
I do believe there are legitimate 71 racks with player header cards, and Moran has proven that, but I believe they are also too easily faked, which is illustrated by the huge disparity between these racks and those with the Topps yellow header card and product code. In any case, they certainly weren't for retail sale. >>
I don't think I have ever seen a "regular card" header 1971 rack that didn't have a cross-hatch punch. I've certainly never seen one
with the die-cut circle. While I can confirm what Tim said about the cross-hatch punch beginning officially with 1971 series 4, I could
not definitively rule out a 1971 rack like this based on that criteria.
The incorrect seams are the primary factor that would have set off my radar. >>
The series 1 71 rack with player header card that Moran ripped had a circular punch hole (though the circular hole is smaller than those found on the yellow Topps header cards). That rack was definitely legitimate as the cards also followed correct sequence and placement on the sheet. IIRC, he pulled two Roses from that rack, one that graded PSA 8 and another that graded 9OC. >>
Tim,
I'll amend my previous comments based on the photo evidence I am providing below.
I am sharing pictures of 3 open racks.
The first was from a 1971 series 1 rack. It has the yellow header card and the die-cut circular "punch" hole
(note that it is the smaller circular punch version...these sometimes stretched from being taken on and off
the rack so sometimes you see racks with bigger, not perfectly rounded hanging holes). Note the seam
(wide and "studded"). This rack yielded a high-end Niekro (PSA 8.5) and a Hunter (PSA 8) along with quite
a few other PSA 8 commons.
The second was from a 1971 series 1 rack with a regular card as the header card. Again note the die-cut
punch out (circular) and seam (wide and "studded)). This rack yielded a Blyleven RC (PSA 8), A Jackson PSA 8 OC
and a Rose PSA 8 OC.
The third was from a 1971 series 5 rack with a regular card as the header card. The "punch" on this one is
more diamond cut (like the cross-hatch one) than circular, which is possible for this kind of rack. However,
look at the seams (narrow and smooth). I don't think it was coindience that this rack yielded only common cards,
none of which received a superior grade (8 or better).
I have several other examples of 1970 and 1971 rack remains like these, and based on the information available
and studying these I have formed the opinion that at least some racks with a "regular card" as the header card are
"good". By "good" I mean that they contain cards that are in "factory" condition, have a reasonable distribution of
star cards and have packaging characteristics (e.g. seem width) that are consistent with the yellow-header card
racks from the same year (I can't say these are definitively "factory", but they are certainly not bogus fabrications
being passed off to unsuspecting collectors).
As for the 1971 series 5 rack, that is a textbook example of what I have learned to avoid.
By the way, the wide and "studded" seams should also be seen on all racks from 1970-1973 racks. That's one of the
yellow flags for the 1971 racks that are currently listed on eBay).
Dave
The punch hole in the second photo is the one I was referring to earlier~that is what you should see in a legit 71 rack with a player card as the header card. Not to say that such a punch hole guarantees the rack is legit, but it is just one of the hallmarks you should consider when assessing a rack's authenticity.
As far as seams go, a 71 rack should exhibit seams with a pattern resembling "tire tracks" to support the higher card count (54) in the rack (as exhibited in pics 1 & 2). When Topps decreased the card count to 42 in 1974, the seams became narrower, as well (as exhibited in pic 3).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>David,
The punch hole in the second photo is the one I was referring to earlier~that is what you should see in a legit 71 rack with a player card as the header card. Not to say that such a punch hole guarantees the rack is legit, but it is just one of the hallmarks you should consider when assessing a rack's authenticity.
As far as seams go, a 71 rack should exhibit seams with a pattern resembling "tire tracks" to support the higher card count (54) in the rack (as exhibited in pics 1 & 2). When Topps decreased the card count to 42 in 1974, the seams became narrower, as well (as exhibited in pic 3). >>
Agreed.
Dave
<< <i>Wow on the 76 FB pack, Jim!
Let's be sure to meet up at the National in AC next year! We can share war stories! >>
I'll introduce you two love birds, just please don't rip any baseball in my presence.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Great info being shared here! But that Moran dude is a jack*ss
Here is the rack that yeilded the PSA 8 and 9OC Roses plus a bunch of other 8's. Hard to tell from pic but it has the wide track seams too
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
<< <i>I gambled on a 76 FB pack that Steve wasn't sure on and hit Payton and Too Tall RCs in the same pack. >>
That's killer, Jim, congrats!
I suspect few on here can say they've had the experience of pulling a Payton rookie out of a pack... and it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!
How was the condition?
Snorto~
<< <i>Thanks for sharing! Above all, thank you for calling it the "national' and not the "natty" lol >>
+1 and thanks for saying that matt; i'm tired of all the slick nicknames people give stuff these days (just call it what it is dammit!) and natty is, well, nasty (although it was great this year!)
On a related note, at least I'm not seeing it referred to as "nationals" as much as in years past which makes it sound as if its a juniors tennis tournament; whenever I used to see that I would cringe as much as i do when i hear a supposedly intelligent sportscaster who says "wimbleTON" instead of "wimbleDON".
ETA: Beautiful cards Chris! thanks for sharing and sorry I missed you at the National
I forget the name of the dealer. Something like Play Ball. I really don't no idea about the authenticity of the rack.
I went back their booth the next day to look at a 1962 cello in a GAI holder. I mentioned that I bought the 1971 rack and ripped it. The nice gentleman asked me how it was. I said "No good." He wound up giving me a deal on the '62.
1962 cello deserves its own thread so one will be coming forthwith!
Hmm maybe I should have ended this thread with the Brett lol.
what #s did your '71 rack span??
-- i had also purchased some very high end unopened from Floyd (fscards) in the last year and they all ended up being fake
Hi manny!!