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Baseball HOF: new rule to allow only ACTIVE writers to vote for HOF, door opened for steroid users
pauldrolkees
Posts: 193 ✭✭✭
http://nesn.com/2015/07/how-this-new-hall-of-fame-rule-affects-barry-bonds-roger-clemens-etc
<< <i>Under former rules, once a writer earned a Hall of Fame vote, they were allowed to keep it for life. Now, only those actively covering the game — in other words, an incoming wave of millennials (plus a bunch already there) — will be the people deciding who enters the Hall of Fame.
As baseball progressively (finally) moves into the 21st century, so too will the people voting for Hall of Famers. So, how what exactly will this do for baseball? Well, for starters, it means less voters will care about steroids. It’s a slippery slope, but one that’s able to be safely navigated.
We’ll lay it out simply for those who can’t wrap their heads around it: Millenials, as a whole, don’t care about steroids. Many don’t consider it cheating or violating baseball’s sacredness, many more think that if it is cheating then the positives of using those drugs were negated by the incredible number of opposing players also using those drugs, and we all realize that every generation has it’s own version of enhancement and flaws. And, for what it’s worth, it takes a lot more than steroids to hit a 95 mph fastball — or throw one.
Were steroids a dark mark on baseball history? Sure. But they also saved the game. It makes no sense ridicule the very players who brought the “Fame” back to baseball. Barry Bonds is the home run king. Roger Clemens is one of the 10 best pitchers — and you could probably shorten that list — ever. Alex Rodriguez should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer five years after he retires.
The steroid era shouldn’t prevent that. Records are made to be broken. Admitting Barry Bonds is the best home run hitter we’ve ever seen takes absolutely nothing away from the incredible accomplishments of Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth or Willie Mays. Now, Cooperstown has a better chance to reflect that. >>
<< <i>Under former rules, once a writer earned a Hall of Fame vote, they were allowed to keep it for life. Now, only those actively covering the game — in other words, an incoming wave of millennials (plus a bunch already there) — will be the people deciding who enters the Hall of Fame.
As baseball progressively (finally) moves into the 21st century, so too will the people voting for Hall of Famers. So, how what exactly will this do for baseball? Well, for starters, it means less voters will care about steroids. It’s a slippery slope, but one that’s able to be safely navigated.
We’ll lay it out simply for those who can’t wrap their heads around it: Millenials, as a whole, don’t care about steroids. Many don’t consider it cheating or violating baseball’s sacredness, many more think that if it is cheating then the positives of using those drugs were negated by the incredible number of opposing players also using those drugs, and we all realize that every generation has it’s own version of enhancement and flaws. And, for what it’s worth, it takes a lot more than steroids to hit a 95 mph fastball — or throw one.
Were steroids a dark mark on baseball history? Sure. But they also saved the game. It makes no sense ridicule the very players who brought the “Fame” back to baseball. Barry Bonds is the home run king. Roger Clemens is one of the 10 best pitchers — and you could probably shorten that list — ever. Alex Rodriguez should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer five years after he retires.
The steroid era shouldn’t prevent that. Records are made to be broken. Admitting Barry Bonds is the best home run hitter we’ve ever seen takes absolutely nothing away from the incredible accomplishments of Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth or Willie Mays. Now, Cooperstown has a better chance to reflect that. >>
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Comments
Arthur
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>I wouldn't say PED's saved the game when the last nine years have produced the eight least watched World Series. >>
Attendance was a joke following the 1994 strike. Now, attendance seems to break records every year.
Aside from the Super Bowl, which is more of a social event, I would imagine television ratings for championship series are down for all sports. There's just too much on, too many other things to do, and recorded television is prominent.
Arthur
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't say PED's saved the game when the last nine years have produced the eight least watched World Series. >>
Attendance was a joke following the 1994 strike. Now, attendance seems to break records every year.
Aside from the Super Bowl, which is more of a social event, I would imagine television ratings for championship series are down for all sports. There's just too much on, too many other things to do, and recorded television is prominent.
Arthur >>
I wouldn't say it broke records every year. Last year's average attendance was the same as 1991.
https://kennerstartinglineup.blogspot.com/
<< <i>http://nesn.com/2015/07/how-this-new-hall-of-fame-rule-affects-barry-bonds-roger-clemens-etc
<< <i>Under former rules, once a writer earned a Hall of Fame vote, they were allowed to keep it for life. Now, only those actively covering the game — in other words, an incoming wave of millennials (plus a bunch already there) — will be the people deciding who enters the Hall of Fame.
As baseball progressively (finally) moves into the 21st century, so too will the people voting for Hall of Famers. So, how what exactly will this do for baseball? Well, for starters, it means less voters will care about steroids. It’s a slippery slope, but one that’s able to be safely navigated.
We’ll lay it out simply for those who can’t wrap their heads around it: Millenials, as a whole, don’t care about steroids. Many don’t consider it cheating or violating baseball’s sacredness, many more think that if it is cheating then the positives of using those drugs were negated by the incredible number of opposing players also using those drugs, and we all realize that every generation has it’s own version of enhancement and flaws. And, for what it’s worth, it takes a lot more than steroids to hit a 95 mph fastball — or throw one.
Were steroids a dark mark on baseball history? Sure. But they also saved the game. It makes no sense ridicule the very players who brought the “Fame” back to baseball. Barry Bonds is the home run king. Roger Clemens is one of the 10 best pitchers — and you could probably shorten that list — ever. Alex Rodriguez should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer five years after he retires.
The steroid era shouldn’t prevent that. Records are made to be broken. Admitting Barry Bonds is the best home run hitter we’ve ever seen takes absolutely nothing away from the incredible accomplishments of Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth or Willie Mays. Now, Cooperstown has a better chance to reflect that. >>
>>
Barry Bonds wasn't the best homerun hitter we've ever seen because it was FAKE. It wasn't real. The same for Alex Rodriguez. It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off.
Our society is getting so messed up that they want to reward cheaters, which is sending the wrong message to the kids. When I was a kid, I was taught cheaters should be punished and not rewarded. As I see those values diminished, I also see our country headed south as well. That's not a coincidence.
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year. >>
Call it whatever you want. If you can't contribute anything to the conversation but stuff like this, why even post?
My point with Dolly was she is a lot like Bonds and Arod. All 3 of them were enhanced and can't be compared to something that is natural. Plus, why should we reward PED cheats?
<< <i>
<< <i>I wouldn't say PED's saved the game when the last nine years have produced the eight least watched World Series. >>
Attendance was a joke following the 1994 strike. Now, attendance seems to break records every year.
Aside from the Super Bowl, which is more of a social event, I would imagine television ratings for championship series are down for all sports. There's just too much on, too many other things to do, and recorded television is prominent.
Arthur >>
NBA Finals this past seasons has record rating since Michael Jordan's last championship.
We have a bout a dozen all-but-confirmed users in the Hall already, who cares?
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year. >>
Call it whatever you want. If you can't contribute anything to the conversation but stuff like this, why even post?
My point with Dolly was she is a lot like Bonds and Arod. All 3 of them were enhanced and can't be compared to something that is natural. Plus, why should we reward PED cheats? >>
This is a complete travesty
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year. >>
Call it whatever you want. If you can't contribute anything to the conversation but stuff like this, why even post?
My point with Dolly was she is a lot like Bonds and Arod. All 3 of them were enhanced and can't be compared to something that is natural. Plus, why should we reward PED cheats? >>
This is a complete travesty >>
PMKAY, Sorry, but I won't click your link. Not worth it.
Obusek, Dolly bought hers. You honestly didn't know that? If you go back and look at photos, you can see she was not that stacked way back in the day.
<< <i>No human being could have done what Barry did with all the steroids in the world. >>
We're not just talking about steroids. It's much more complicated. Designers drugs can literally make a star almost superhuman. That is exactly what BALCO was about.
Before PEDs, by far, McGwire was the better pure homerun hitter of the two. If McGwire had used the better designer PEDs Bonds was on, he may have hit 80 homeruns in 1998. That crude stuff McGwire admitted to being on was like Flintstones vitamins compared to what BALCO had Bonds amped up on.
<< <i>
<< <i>No human being could have done what Barry did with all the steroids in the world. >>
We're not just talking about steroids. It's much more complicated. Designers drugs can literally make a star almost superhuman. That is exactly what BALCO was about.
Before PEDs, by far, McGwire was the better pure homerun hitter of the two. If McGwire had used the better designer PEDs Bonds was on, he may have hit 80 homeruns in 1998. That crude stuff McGwire admitted to being on was like Flintstones vitamins compared to what BALCO had Bonds amped up on. >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Laboratory_Co-operative
BALCO's other clients: Benito Santiago, Jeremy Giambi, Bobby Estalella, Armando Rios.
I don't see any one of those guys remotely approach Bonds terrifyingly good batting average or walks rate, not to mention homeruns. Designer drug or bad, Bonds is just that much better than everyone else who were doing it too.
On the other hand Raffy Palmiero should not get in because he failed a test during the PED rules.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year. >>
You must not have seen any of his other posts the last few months.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's like looking at Dolly Parton and trying to argue she was more gifted than the woman next to her that didn't buy a set of silicone trophies to show off >>
New contender for dumbest post of the year. >>
You must not have seen any of his other posts the last few months. >>
All strong contenders for DPOY
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>No human being could have done what Barry did with all the steroids in the world. >>
We're not just talking about steroids. It's much more complicated. Designers drugs can literally make a star almost superhuman. That is exactly what BALCO was about.
Before PEDs, by far, McGwire was the better pure homerun hitter of the two. If McGwire had used the better designer PEDs Bonds was on, he may have hit 80 homeruns in 1998. That crude stuff McGwire admitted to being on was like Flintstones vitamins compared to what BALCO had Bonds amped up on. >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Laboratory_Co-operative
BALCO's other clients: Benito Santiago, Jeremy Giambi, Bobby Estalella, Armando Rios.
I don't see any one of those guys remotely approach Bonds terrifyingly good batting average or walks rate, not to mention homeruns. Designer drug or bad, Bonds is just that much better than everyone else who were doing it too. >>
Then explain to me how Bonds went from a guy who was a .275 career hitter without the PEDs with the Pirates, to a guy who was a literal hitting machine with PEDs in San Francisco? I'll tell you why. It's because the stuff is very effective if you have the money to buy the really good designer drugs and you already have some talent.
There were a good amount of better hitters than Bonds before he turned to designer PEDs. I can only imagine what a guy like Eric Davis or Don Matttingly could have done on them. Or Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Heck, look what the designer stuff done for one of the Giambi brothers. It literally made him an MVP superstar with Oakland.
<< <i>Let'em in in my opinion. Start with Bonds and Clemens and eventually get to the Palmeiro's(down the line vet committee), Sosa's, McGwire's etc. Enough is enough IMO. The era is what it is. Can't be changed, can't be erased. I hate to break to some folks but Barry Bonds is the real home run leader, not Saint Henry. Fact. Not fantasy. Just enough with the garbage. Induct them. >>
With Dolly Parton having cheated her way into the Songwriters Hall of Fame, the standard has been set.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Bonds was a first ballot HOFer before he began using PEDs. Anyone who doesn't understand that or who uses simplistic stats like batting average to make their case is simply not understanding the total criteria by which greatness is gauged. And I'm not a fan or fond of Bonds, either. In addition, beginning in 1990, Bonds hit .300 or better, in many cases, significantly better than ,300, most seasons, too. Not to mention his OBP% which was exceptional during that time, too. >>
Oh, but people who use those stats do fully understand. What people like you fail to understand is that Bonds would have never even been close to a .300 career hitter without designer PEDs. And even with them and the monster number he put up on them, he still fell short of being a career .300 hitter. You go ahead and call the numbers simplistic, but they are what a player is measured by.
Without PED's, Barry Bonds was a better on base version of his father. And Bobby Bonds wasn't a HOF'er. Barry might have made the HOF without PED's, but his stats would have looked nothing like they turned out.
His Pirates career numbers were .275 avg/.380 on base/.502 slug
His father's career numbers were .268 avg/.353 on base/.471 slug
Even if Barry put up some peak years after he left Pittsburgh, his career numbers would all have most certainly dipped as he got older just as they have done for all of the other stars that slowed down as they aged.
Wow, I did not know that. So there would be no baseball if it weren't for steroids?
<< <i>When I was a kid, I was taught cheaters should be punished and not rewarded. As I see those values diminished, I also see our country headed south as well. That's not a coincidence. >>
TOTALLY AGREE!
You must be OLD!
<< <i>
<< <i>When I was a kid, I was taught cheaters should be punished and not rewarded. As I see those values diminished, I also see our country headed south as well. That's not a coincidence. >>
TOTALLY AGREE!
You must be OLD! >>
Yes, I probably am.
<< <i>It's widely accepted Barry was clean as a Pirate and didn't start dabbling in PED's until he went to the Giants.
His Pirates career numbers were .275 avg/.380 on base/.502 slug
His father's career numbers were .268 avg/.353 on base/.471 slug
Even if Barry put up some peak years after he left Pittsburgh, his career numbers would all have most certainly dipped as he got older just as they have done for all of the other stars that slowed down as they aged. >>
Barry led the league in OPS+ for 4 straight seasons and won 3 MVPs from 1990-1993. The one year he didn't win the MVP, he finished second. He was the best player in baseball those seasons, and that was long before he began dabbling in PEDs.
Look up his stats on basebalreference.com. ALL of the stats, not just the ones you are twisting to make your assertions, and you might gain a better understanding of what I'm referring to.
Like I said, I am no fan of Barry Bonds, but the guy was MUCH better than his father even before he began using any PEDs.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
<< <i>
<< <i>It's widely accepted Barry was clean as a Pirate and didn't start dabbling in PED's until he went to the Giants.
His Pirates career numbers were .275 avg/.380 on base/.502 slug
His father's career numbers were .268 avg/.353 on base/.471 slug
Even if Barry put up some peak years after he left Pittsburgh, his career numbers would all have most certainly dipped as he got older just as they have done for all of the other stars that slowed down as they aged. >>
Barry led the league in OPS+ for 4 straight seasons and won 3 MVPs from 1990-1993. The one year he didn't win the MVP, he finished second. He was the best player in baseball those seasons, and that was long before he began dabbling in PEDs.
Look up his stats on basebalreference.com. ALL of the stats, not just the ones you are twisting to make your assertions, and you might gain a better understanding of what I'm referring to.
Like I said, I am no fan of Barry Bonds, but the guy was MUCH better than his father even before he began using any PEDs. >>
I'm not twisting anything. My numbers came directly from baseballreference.com
Roger Maris won MVPs and he is not a HOF'er. Barry Bonds won his first 3 because the big stars of the time like Griffey, Thomas, and Canseco were in the AL back then. His competition was fairly soft. And Barry wasn't the best player in the game back then. That would have been Big Frank or Kenny Griffey.
Barry started dabbling with PED use in San Francisco when he got there. His former business partner and girlfriends in the past told that. Later, he connected with BALCO and it all really came together for him. All of his Giants numbers are suspect. If you look at his baseball card photos, you can see the body changes starting in at least 1996. The majority of Bonds career numbers are fraudulent.