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Is this the right thing to do for a "Reputable Dealer?"
CCC2010
Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭
First let me state that i have Nothing against dealers and in fact could not understand where the backlash was coming from in a couple of previous posts from years past of being a member here.... This is my first experience against this dealer.
Last January i bought two sets of a limited edition Mexican Libertad 7 coin Proof set that is just coming out now for 2015 and i got issued an invoice number from that dealer which i promptly paid last January via check as per his instructions and after waiting for months and being asked to wait patiently by the said dealer then just a weeks ago i got a shipment notice of 1 set. So i got in touch with the said dealer promptly and reminded him of my invoice number...the quantity of 2 sets i paid for in that invoice...my check number and date and the amount i paid. I even told him i can provide a copy of the cashed check.
Then i got an email response from him and He told me that my shipment was cut to just 1 set because AND i quote:
"Unfortunately, you order was reduced by one set, due to faulty ( spots ) coins. Your refund check will be included."
I was kind of baffled by this because i paid for these 2 sets when i sent my check since January(and it was cashed) of this year and Never Once was i consulted If i am OK with coin spots on the second set or not. So i asked him if he can show me pictures of those "Spots" and I also asked him if other sets have Spots on them as well? IF its only my set that is affected and if not why me? I told him that as his customer and the owner of those 2 sets that he should have consulted me on the matter and that he does not have the right to make any decisions for me or my behalf Without talking to me first. Never once did i relinquish my right to him
Then i told him i am a member of several forums and would not like to post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right. I told him that i want my two sets that i paid for since January.
So i kept tracking the USPS tracking number that he sent me up to last night and i kept emailing him asking that i still do not have my set up to yesterday 7/27/15 when he indicated that he mailed it to me via USPS Priority Mail on July21st . I never got a single response since our last email exchange. . The kicker is i got a mail from him today and guess what..He refunded me my entire check that i paid to him ...not 1 set and a refund for the second set as he stated above ...Mind you he had my money since January. He also sent as note stating "Never presume to think that you can dictate to me. " end quote.
Is this how any dealer should conduct themselves? Was i wrong to demand my two sets? Was i wrong to ask and see what the spots look like? Was i wrong to say that he has no right to decide for me Without asking me first?
What is your opinion on the matter? Fire away!
Last January i bought two sets of a limited edition Mexican Libertad 7 coin Proof set that is just coming out now for 2015 and i got issued an invoice number from that dealer which i promptly paid last January via check as per his instructions and after waiting for months and being asked to wait patiently by the said dealer then just a weeks ago i got a shipment notice of 1 set. So i got in touch with the said dealer promptly and reminded him of my invoice number...the quantity of 2 sets i paid for in that invoice...my check number and date and the amount i paid. I even told him i can provide a copy of the cashed check.
Then i got an email response from him and He told me that my shipment was cut to just 1 set because AND i quote:
"Unfortunately, you order was reduced by one set, due to faulty ( spots ) coins. Your refund check will be included."
I was kind of baffled by this because i paid for these 2 sets when i sent my check since January(and it was cashed) of this year and Never Once was i consulted If i am OK with coin spots on the second set or not. So i asked him if he can show me pictures of those "Spots" and I also asked him if other sets have Spots on them as well? IF its only my set that is affected and if not why me? I told him that as his customer and the owner of those 2 sets that he should have consulted me on the matter and that he does not have the right to make any decisions for me or my behalf Without talking to me first. Never once did i relinquish my right to him
Then i told him i am a member of several forums and would not like to post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right. I told him that i want my two sets that i paid for since January.
So i kept tracking the USPS tracking number that he sent me up to last night and i kept emailing him asking that i still do not have my set up to yesterday 7/27/15 when he indicated that he mailed it to me via USPS Priority Mail on July21st . I never got a single response since our last email exchange. . The kicker is i got a mail from him today and guess what..He refunded me my entire check that i paid to him ...not 1 set and a refund for the second set as he stated above ...Mind you he had my money since January. He also sent as note stating "Never presume to think that you can dictate to me. " end quote.
Is this how any dealer should conduct themselves? Was i wrong to demand my two sets? Was i wrong to ask and see what the spots look like? Was i wrong to say that he has no right to decide for me Without asking me first?
What is your opinion on the matter? Fire away!
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Comments
The "spotting" probably seemed like the best excuse showing he was looking out for your best interest.
You got a free set so I wouldn't complain too much. I wouldn't deal with him again.
<< <i>If I understand you correctly, you have one set and all your money back? I would just move on and leave him in the looney bin where he belongs. >>
I have ZERO set and only the refund of the two sets which i paid for since January 2015. Essentially he got a zero interest loan from me since January of this year.
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if you actually get 1 set, pay for the 1 set.
the dealer screwed up by not telling you about the spotty coins (who'd take photos if no one asked for them previously?) and asking you what to do. But it wasn't so big of a screw up that the nuclear option be used right away, especially if the money was refunded.
<< <i>I'm understanding that he sent no sets and refunded the full amount. >>
Correct.
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>
<< <i>If I understand you correctly, you have one set and all your money back? I would just move on and leave him in the looney bin where he belongs. >>
I have ZERO set and only the refund of the two sets which i paid for since January 2015. Essentially he got a zero interest loan from me since January of this year. >>
Alrighty then. No need to carry it any further
spots might be acceptable to you. If he doesn't offer to send the other set (or pictures of it) to you at that
point, you can probably conclude he's using "spots" as an excuse for a set he's not in possession of.
Even with that outcome, there's nothing to be gained by taking the dealer to task. You would've been
best off just avoiding the dealer going forward if you felt he acted dishonorably.
Just my opinion, of course.
<< <i>I wouldn't deal with someone like that. You essentially gave him a 6 month loan at 0% interest. Please PM me the name of his dealer so I am sure to avoid them. >>
Yeah. I've learned my lesson about giving out extended "loans" to dealers (or collectors) in years past. In several cases I didn't get all my money back.
You challenged a dealer providing poor customer service. They don't like that....lol. You have to remember that what they have is theirs, and what you have is soon to be theirs.
Be happy you were made whole. PM prices are somewhat lower now than in January. You're money may go further in the market today. Maybe a blessing in disguise.
I'd like to know where those faulty (spotted) coins went to? Back to the Mexican mint? Wholesaled off to another customer or dealer? Maybe they'd figure you'd be happy with only 1. And when you gave them a "reason" to end up with none, even better. Welcome to the Coin Market. I wish my worst dealer experiences turned out as good as yours.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I also do not know how he was getting his sets and this might have dictated the offer of one set only. It might have been a case where the dealer had to buy the sets with no right to return any sets that might subsequently be returned to him and he may have experience with this type of spotting on new sets where they are returned by the original purchaser and might become extremely illiquid. If that is the case, then he might have (incorrectly) assumed that you would return the spotted set and that he would be stuck with what might be considered damaged goods. In that scenario, his thought process might have simply been to save both of you time, expense and disappointment by not acquiring the second set and to issue you a refund for that set. Alternatively, the dealer might have only been offered one set because of the spotting issue and in that case he would have had no recourse on obtaining a second set. If this happened, then his communication to you was a heads-up. We don't know, either of these may actually have been the case.
Again, the tone of your post is highly aggressive and many folks do not like to be spoken to or written to in that manner, especially if they either do not have control of the situation or if they thought they were doing you a favor.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
has the value of the sets gone up since purchase?
even though you're getting 0 sets, was a tracking number for the one set ever provided? was the tracking number ever functioning?
Guy keeps your money for 6 months and then does not deliver what was paid for? Who wouldn't be upset. Lance had some good advice.
Now there always seems to be another side to these stories, so I'll keep an eye on the thread. Someone here will also rat you out to the dealer and then the popcorn eating gifs come out. Business as usual.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
<< <i>Did these coins increase in value from January when you paid for them to July? If so, it might explain why he didn't follow through with this deal. I'd also like to know who this dealer is. >>
this is the right answer. If the sets in question are the ones I think they are, they were minted in very low quantity and really sold well in the secondary market. I'm pretty sure the dealer treated your money as a free loan, bought the sets with the intent to send them to you, then saw the secondary market was HUGE, then decided to stiff you so he could make more money.
Maybe, just maybe, the dealer was just forgetful and very knowledgeable of your taste in coins and was looking out for you 100% of the time and was truly butt hurt by your inquiries as to when you would receive the items you paid for. Nah. I'm voting for "dealer saw dollar signs" and dismissed his obligation to you.
I'd be upset over how things went down too. However, hostility breeds hostility. You inadvertently escalated the situation, which made things worse rather than better. I can see why the dealer did what he did, simply refunding you and being done with it.
<< <i>The sets were initially priced at roughly $600 each and will definitely be selling for over $1000 each when they hit eBay in the coming weeks. Maybe as high as $1500 if last year is any indication. I also wonder where the spotted set ended up. >>
I think the so-called "spotted set" is smoke and mirrors.
Who was he???
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
1) You went "nuclear" way too early. The "member of forums" comment.
2) Not the way a trustable dealer should act. If you don't mention who he is, you are doing yourself and others a disservice and you should never have even started the thread but just taken the dishonest lumps he was handing to you.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Then i told him i am a member of several forums and would not like to post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right. I >>
OH GAWD! THIS is the type of leverage people on the forum use? No wonder the dealers hate collectors.
<< <i>
<< <i>Then i told him i am a member of several forums and would not like to post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right. I >>
OH GAWD! THIS is the type of leverage people on the forum use? No wonder the dealers hate collectors.
So what would you have done? Play dead like and just be satisfied of getting kicked around?
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Then i told him i am a member of several forums and would not like to post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right. I >>
OH GAWD! THIS is the type of leverage people on the forum use? No wonder the dealers hate collectors.
So what would you have done? Play dead like and just be satisfied of getting kicked around? >>
NO.
<< <i>
<< <i>Did these coins increase in value from January when you paid for them to July? If so, it might explain why he didn't follow through with this deal. I'd also like to know who this dealer is. >>
this is the right answer. If the sets in question are the ones I think they are, they were minted in very low quantity and really sold well in the secondary market. I'm pretty sure the dealer treated your money as a free loan, bought the sets with the intent to send them to you, then saw the secondary market was HUGE, then decided to stiff you so he could make more money.
Maybe, just maybe, the dealer was just forgetful and very knowledgeable of your taste in coins and was looking out for you 100% of the time and was truly butt hurt by your inquiries as to when you would receive the items you paid for. Nah. I'm voting for "dealer saw dollar signs" and dismissed his obligation to you. >>
Typical of posts around here lately, people will just start making up ways to make a dealer out to be the villain.
The OP went off the deep end way too early. Objectively reading, the OP's comments like "he doesn't have the right to make any decisions for me" and "post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right" read like a whole barrel of crazy.
If I were on the receiving end of communications like this, I'd have refunded the money and washed my hands of a high maintenance customer, too.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
tracking number questions.
value questions
when were the sets first received by anyone ? February? June? Between?
<< <i>CCC2010 is getting a lot of criticism for threatening this dealer with public exposure. I think this criticism is unfair because these threats weren't made until AFTER the dealer reneged on the deal. I hope he follows through with this threat to out this dealer. Sitting on someone's money for six months and then backing out of a done deal is representable. I wonder if this dealer is a member of the PNG? >>
Some people seem to want to convict the dealer first and ask questions later.
It's entirely possible that the situation is exactly as the dealer described: he got a spotted set and didn't want to send it out under his name. It's his right to uphold his quality standards, and his right not to send out coins that don't meet his standards. In fact, no one here has any actual EVIDENCE to suggest any other motive besides quality control.
However, outing the dealer based on one side of a shaky story has the very real potential to damage the reputation of someone who just **might** not be guilty.
The lynch mob mentality has the real possibility of damaging someone's livelihood based solely on conjecture.
Guess not.
<< <i>
<< <i>CCC2010 is getting a lot of criticism for threatening this dealer with public exposure. I think this criticism is unfair because these threats weren't made until AFTER the dealer reneged on the deal. I hope he follows through with this threat to out this dealer. Sitting on someone's money for six months and then backing out of a done deal is representable. I wonder if this dealer is a member of the PNG? >>
Some people seem to want to convict the dealer first and ask questions later.
It's entirely possible that the situation is exactly as the dealer described: he got a spotted set and didn't want to send it out under his name. It's his right to uphold his quality standards, and his right not to send out coins that don't meet his standards. In fact, no one here has any actual EVIDENCE to suggest any other motive besides quality control.
However, outing the dealer based on one side of a shaky story has the very real potential to damage the reputation of someone who just **might** not be guilty.
The lynch mob mentality has the real possibility of damaging someone's livelihood based solely on conjecture. >>
Both sets were bought and paid for by CCC2010 six month earlier so he owned both sets as far as I'm concerned. If one of the sets allegedly had spots the dealer should have called CCC2010 and given him the option to take the spotted set or a refund.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Did these coins increase in value from January when you paid for them to July? If so, it might explain why he didn't follow through with this deal. I'd also like to know who this dealer is. >>
this is the right answer. If the sets in question are the ones I think they are, they were minted in very low quantity and really sold well in the secondary market. I'm pretty sure the dealer treated your money as a free loan, bought the sets with the intent to send them to you, then saw the secondary market was HUGE, then decided to stiff you so he could make more money.
Maybe, just maybe, the dealer was just forgetful and very knowledgeable of your taste in coins and was looking out for you 100% of the time and was truly butt hurt by your inquiries as to when you would receive the items you paid for. Nah. I'm voting for "dealer saw dollar signs" and dismissed his obligation to you. >>
Typical of posts around here lately, people will just start making up ways to make a dealer out to be the villain.
The OP went off the deep end way too early. Objectively reading, the OP's comments like "he doesn't have the right to make any decisions for me" and "post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right" read like a whole barrel of crazy.
If I were on the receiving end of communications like this, I'd have refunded the money and washed my hands of a high maintenance customer, too. >>
This x 100...
OP shot himself in the foot. The "he-had-my-money-since-January" thing cuts no ice as it was necessary for virtually everyone to have their money in basically on, if memory serves, Jan. 24th to even have a shot at getting one set, much less two. This was a set with a mintage of 250 pieces that was confirmed sold out, I believe, in 3 hours as I recall...someone can confirm that, no doubt...and OP still got confirmation that he had one set coming for sure! And this was after sending a CHECK (and the dealer presumably waiting for it to clear)...and OP was STILL high enough in line to get one...but that wasn't good enough, apparently!
Also FYI I've heard reports of spot problems on these elsewhere- from a foreign dealer buddy- so what your dealer told you is plausible, though to be fair he my have been "rationing" these among his preorder people to make sure as many as possible got at least one. Some sellers often place a "right to limit/alter order quantity" codicil in their TOS. Could be your guy had this in place as well. Those claiming he was holding out for better aftermarket money...if true, the why didn't he just refund both sets to begin with?
Bottom line ...Had OP not spouted off about how he was coin forum guy and threatened the dealer, he would have for sure gotten at least one set...and maybe, just maybe, a shot at a second once Moneda de Mexico decides on a resolution/replacement if any for spotty sets. So I feel bad that OP got zero sets, but I guess my sympathies are a bit limited.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>....Typical of posts around here lately, people will just start making up ways to make a dealer out to be the villain.
The OP went off the deep end way too early. Objectively reading, the OP's comments like "he doesn't have the right to make any decisions for me" and "post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right" read like a whole barrel of crazy.
If I were on the receiving end of communications like this, I'd have refunded the money and washed my hands of a high maintenance customer, too. >>
So you're saying if these sets weren't up 2X to 3X over issue price (let's say they were selling UNDER issue price).....that this dealer would have kept the sets for losses to "avoid" the "high maintenance" customer? Sure.
If the sets are going to go for 2X and 3X, the OP got hosed, spotted coins or not, going nuclear or not. This is just theft really. And a free loan theft. Let's support the nice dealer because he was "threatened" verbally when it was apparent he would not make good on the deal. Yes, I'm sure those spots really concerned his customer awareness when the sets were going to sell for 2x or more. LOL. So what is this "good hearted" dealer going to do with all those spotted sets he took back from his customers? Seems we're about ready to vote this guy ANA or PNG dealer of the year if he belongs to either organization.
If I were on the receiving end of communications like this, I'd have refunded the money and washed my hands of a high maintenance customer, too.
And then what would you have done with the windfall profits from those coins? Donate them to charity?
I thought a deal was a deal. Pay for two sets, you get two sets......guess not
Not when windfall profits are at stake. It's every man for themselves at that point. And if those coins were selling for big losses well under issue price and you walked away because the the dealer "yelled at you." You can bet that guy would be tracking you down to the ends of the earth to force you to pay up for those coins...because now it's a loss....and that's different.
As previously noted, the dealer should have contacted the
buyer and said that one set was spotted. Send pictures and let
the buyer decide.
If the dealer didn't like the buyer's interpersonal skills, the dealer should have
completed the transaction and then decided to not do future business with
the buyer.
(My opinion: it is unlikely that one set was spotted.)
The dealer cheated the buyer.
I would appreciate a PM so I avoid this dealer.
Sometimes you win. Most of the time you don't.
It seems like no sets were released until recently, so why all the complaints about the free loan? Wasn't that aspect known going into the deal in January?
I would appreciate a PM so I avoid this dealer."
My opinion also and I am I entitled to it just as others are to theirs.
Please PM me the dealers name.
<< <i>I could easily pitchfork in here, but I'll wait for more info
It seems like no sets were released until recently, so why all the complaints about the free loan? Wasn't that aspect known going into the deal in January? >>
CCC2010 thought he would actually get the two sets that he had already paid for in January.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
sorry , but a threat is enough to kill the transaction and a lot of the communication is missing about what the dealer actually said. I would not deal with you either to be quite honest making a threat when there was still discussion about a valid issue you had is dealing in bad faith and not acting in your own best interest.
I would deal with this seller as there are 2 sides to every transaction and threats do not replace communication or negotiation. You can still disagree and still not be happy but the threat makes it far less likely that you will get a positive result. I would consider apologizing for the threat it was wrong and no way do I think the dealer was wrong in ending the transaction.
incidentally the threat to make such post make you look real bad to many in this community.
Typical of posts around here lately, people will just start making up ways to make a dealer out to be the villain.
The OP went off the deep end way too early. Objectively reading, the OP's comments like "he doesn't have the right to make any decisions for me" and "post this matter in several forums unless he makes this right" read like a whole barrel of crazy.
If I were on the receiving end of communications like this, I'd have refunded the money and washed my hands of a high maintenance customer, too. >>
This x 100...
OP shot himself in the foot. The "he-had-my-money-since-January" thing cuts no ice as it was necessary for virtually everyone to have their money in basically on, if memory serves, Jan. 24th to even have a shot at getting one set, much less two. This was a set with a mintage of 250 pieces that was confirmed sold out, I believe, in 3 hours as I recall...someone can confirm that, no doubt...and OP still got confirmation that he had one set coming for sure! And this was after sending a CHECK (and the dealer presumably waiting for it to clear)...and OP was STILL high enough in line to get one...but that wasn't good enough, apparently!
Also FYI I've heard reports of spot problems on these elsewhere- from a foreign dealer buddy- so what your dealer told you is plausible, though to be fair he my have been "rationing" these among his preorder people to make sure as many as possible got at least one. Some sellers often place a "right to limit/alter order quantity" codicil in their TOS. Could be your guy had this in place as well. Those claiming he was holding out for better aftermarket money...if true, the why didn't he just refund both sets to begin with?
Bottom line ...Had OP not spouted off about how he was coin forum guy and threatened the dealer, he would have for sure gotten at least one set...and maybe, just maybe, a shot at a second once Moneda de Mexico decides on a resolution/replacement if any for spotty sets. So I feel bad that OP got zero sets, but I guess my sympathies are a bit limited. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>The sets were initially priced at roughly $600 each and will definitely be selling for over $1000 each when they hit eBay in the coming weeks. Maybe as high as $1500 if last year is any indication. I also wonder where the spotted set ended up. >>
I think the so-called "spotted set" is smoke and mirrors. >>
I would agree with this assessment IF the sets have almost tripled in value since the purchase date.. If so, thatt is really lame. A deal is a deal and your word should be worth something.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>CCC2010 is getting a lot of criticism for threatening this dealer with public exposure. I think this criticism is unfair because these threats weren't made until AFTER the dealer reneged on the deal. I hope he follows through with this threat to out this dealer. Sitting on someone's money for six months and then backing out of a done deal is representable. I wonder if this dealer is a member of the PNG? >>
Reprehensible!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
At the rate this is going.......
-No one is going to buy from anyone here.
-No one is going to sell to anyone here.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection