Franchise Four: Greatest living players
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Dboneesq
Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
Bench? Come on ... a great ballplayer ... a WELL deserving HOFer ... but one of the top 4 greatest living players? NO WAY.
I think we would all agree that Aaron and Mays are the top 2. So excluding them, 1 of the 2 best? Sorry.
Do you think I'm way off on this?
I think we would all agree that Aaron and Mays are the top 2. So excluding them, 1 of the 2 best? Sorry.
Do you think I'm way off on this?
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
0
Comments
JMO
IMF
<< <i>I think because the ASG was in Cincinnati (and that Rose wasn't an option), they needed a Reds player
JMO ... IMF >>
Exactly what I said to my daughter as we were watching that moment on TV. Yeah sure, THE PEOPLE voted. LOL
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>I think because the ASG was in Cincinnati (and that Rose wasn't an option), they needed a Reds player
JMO
IMF >>
+1
I would agree with Doug, even though Bench was my childhood idle.
Jmaciu's Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>I think because the ASG was in Cincinnati (and that Rose wasn't an option), they needed a Reds player
JMO
IMF >>
+1
I would agree with Doug, even though Bench was my childhood idle. >>
He was that lazy, huh John?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
www.questfortherookiecup.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think because the ASG was in Cincinnati (and that Rose wasn't an option), they needed a Reds player
JMO
IMF >>
+1
I would agree with Doug, even though Bench was my childhood idle. >>
He was that lazy, huh John?
Jmaciu's Collection
<< <i>No to Bench. A total joke on that one, imo. And if we are talking about living pitchers, I'm not sure Koufax was better than Bob Gibson as far as overall greatness. >>
Nolan Ryan isn't the greatest living pitcher? Really?
<< <i>
<< <i>No to Bench. A total joke on that one, imo. And if we are talking about living pitchers, I'm not sure Koufax was better than Bob Gibson as far as overall greatness. >>
Nolan Ryan isn't the greatest living pitcher? Really? >>
Really. He's a deserving HOFer and 7 no hitters are nice and flashy, but he never had a single season as dominant as the SEVERAL both Koufax and Gibson delivered in their prime. I would also rank Seaver better than Ryan and several others are close. Again, I'm not saying Ryan wasn't great. I'm just saying a couple of guys were greater. I think I'll rank Ryan 4th greatest living pitcher.
<< <i>I think Aaron & Mays were the only locks. I can see Bench; after all is is generally regarded as the greatest catcher of all time. Koufax at his peak shined brighter than anyone - but of course he doesn't have the career length of other pitchers who would be considered (Carlton, Johnson, etc...). Someone upthread mentioned Henderson, I could see that too. I'd also throw Ken Griffey Jr's name into the mix. Heck, I suppose you could also consider Albert Pujols for that matter. Mike Schmidt? Jeter? >>
I think Aaron, Mays, and Pujols are 3 of the greatest living players. How many other guys have hit 500 homeruns and had a career batting average right at .300 or better?
Aaron
Bench
Frank Rrobinson
Rose
Koufax
Schmidt
Carlton
Gibson
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>No to Bench. A total joke on that one, imo. And if we are talking about living pitchers, I'm not sure Koufax was better than Bob Gibson as far as overall greatness. >>
Nolan Ryan isn't the greatest living pitcher? Really? >>
Really. He's a deserving HOFer and 7 no hitters are nice and flashy, but he never had a single season as dominant as the SEVERAL both Koufax and Gibson delivered in their prime. I would also rank Seaver better than Ryan and several others are close. Again, I'm not saying Ryan wasn't great. I'm just saying a couple of guys were greater. I think I'll rank Ryan 4th greatest living pitcher. >>
I guess the teams around them had no impact on that, huh?
Ryan's stretch from 72-77 is just stupid, and not one winning Angels team in there. Not one.
"Deserving HOFer" - I got good laugh out of that.
Frank Robinson is a good call. If you talk about the "art of pitching", I could definitely go with Maddux.
<< <i>I think Aaron, Mays, and Pujols are 3 of the greatest living players. How many other guys have hit 500 homeruns and had a career batting average right at .300 or better? >>
Fans almost forgot how great Pujols. He wasn't even on the top 4 Cardinals.
Also, Vlad Guerrero for two teams (Expos, Angels).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>No to Bench. A total joke on that one, imo. And if we are talking about living pitchers, I'm not sure Koufax was better than Bob Gibson as far as overall greatness. >>
Nolan Ryan isn't the greatest living pitcher? Really? >>
Really. He's a deserving HOFer and 7 no hitters are nice and flashy, but he never had a single season as dominant as the SEVERAL both Koufax and Gibson delivered in their prime. I would also rank Seaver better than Ryan and several others are close. Again, I'm not saying Ryan wasn't great. I'm just saying a couple of guys were greater. I think I'll rank Ryan 4th greatest living pitcher. >>
I guess the teams around them had no impact on that, huh?
Ryan's stretch from 72-77 is just stupid, and not one winning Angels team in there. Not one. >>
No, you're right, whether a pitcher is surrounded by a "winning team" has no bearing on his greatness. I'm glad we agree on that. Unless you're one of those people who measures a pitcher by his win total
Again, this might be misconstrued as Ryan bashing, and that's not my intent. In fact, in looking at it more closely, I think a case can be made that he was as great or greater than Seaver. But Koufax and Gibson are my top 2 living pitchers.
Ryan's strikeouts stats in the 70's were flat out amazing, enough to keep him up there IMO. Statistically speaking, it would be appropriate to include Randy Johnson & Greg Maddux in the discussion as well for ranking best living pitchers.
<< <i>
I would agree with Doug, even though Bench was my childhood idle.
He was that lazy, huh John?
My mind immediately went to adjusting the idle on a carburetor but I must say, I like yours better hahaha
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TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
Bench and Koufax, as the discussion here has shown, are probably on the list for a combination of what they did on the field and the developed legend once they stepped off of it. True, you could probably stock a roster full of pitchers who had better statistical careers than Koufax. But that stretch of 1963-66 was just stupid, almost mythical. The whole stepping out on top, and at such a young age, and then maintaining a modicum of privacy in retirement, gives rise to the legend. That is why he is on the list.
As for Bench, being recognized as the best catcher ever, and being from Cincinnatti (I have to admit the box was probably 'stuffed' in his favor), gave him the nod. I would venture to say that even Yaz or Schmidt would have been a better choice than Bench. But neither of those two have the overall (read league-wide) 'pantheon' recognition that Bench has.
FWIW - my four - Aaron, Mays, Ripken, Ryan, although you could talk me into taking Randy Johnson over Ryan.
Topps/OPC Hockey 1966-Present base sets
<< <i>No, you're right, whether a pitcher is surrounded by a "winning team" has no bearing on his greatness. I'm glad we agree on that. Unless you're one of those people who measures a pitcher by his win total. :0 >>
You want to ignore the quality of the teams around these guys, I think it's paramount to the analysis. Koufax and Gibson played for perennial contenders and Championship teams. Ryan played for teams competing for 5th place - in the West. Which goes a long way toward explaining that lack of Cy Young awards.
<< <i>Most knowledgeable baseball fans use stats like ERA and WHIP to measure a pitcher's individual greatness. >>
Yeah, kind of like most statisticians use the ones that make their case and ignore the rest?
Team wins for Angels 1973-1977 = max 79, avg 73.8 (they never finished above .500 in that span!)
Dodgers 1962-1966 = max 102, avg 94.6
Cardinals 1968-1972 = max 97, avg 85
"Decisions per start" and "% of teams wins"
Ryan - 93%, 25.3%
Koufax - 82.4%, 23.6%
Gibson - 91.1%, 23.8%
<< <i>Like I said, "not close." >>
Just depends on the stats you want to use, ultimately there's more to consider even beyond the stats. It may not be clear, and that's fine, but to say it's "not close" is an emotional response, not an intellectual one. Which is partly why we all love the game so much.
Koufax is your WHIP winner (.935 - WHAT?!?!?), heck he's probably your 5 consecutive year winner pretty easily. But he doesn't win the longevity component, and if you use 10 years a basis for that Gibson probably gets a slight nod. But it's pretty close and again Ryan played mostly for junkers.
For me personally, many of Ryan's stats are so overwhelmingly better (and yes, some are "show stats" like Ks but in the end Wins are Wins and then there's 12 ONE-hitters that don't get discussed that often), when you then account for him playing for such awful teams most of the time I think it's easy to build a case. It's absolutely CLOSE, if nothing else.
In terms of others, Berra was another guy I thought about as well.
With that being said, I'm not sure what my 4 would be. Mays and Aaron are locks. I think my group of finalists for the last 2 spots is Gibson, Koufax, Schmidt, Frank Robinson, Bench and Rickey Henderson. But do more modern guys deserve consideration, like Maddux, Pedro and Griffey? I just don't know.
<< <i>Mays and Aaron deserve to be on the list. Koufax, there's some romanticism going on there I'm afraid. Love Koufax, but no, just no. I'd take Schmidt >> Bench. If folks want to exclude certain players for whatever reason, I don't see how Mays, Aaron, Schmidt and Pujols would have been a bad 4. All greats, some greater than others. All opinion. >>
I am with you on a Mays, Aaron, and Pujols combo. Pujols being the current player with 3 MVP's, 546 homeruns, a .315 career average, 2,600+ hits and still going does it for me on him. My fourth hitter would probably have to be Frank Robinson. Frank was so underrated, imo. Griffey Jr and Schmidt aren't bad picks on the living guys either for that 4th spot.
These old farts with Koufax and Johnny Bench . Sandy Koufax isn't even one of the Four Greatest Living Pitchers . Clemens , Maddux, Randy Johnson , and Nolan Ryan were all better than Koufax .
Mays
Rose
Henderson
I left the known racist off the list.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
<< <i>I am surprised it took so long for someone to name Bonds. He is definitely in the top 3 with Mays and Aaron. He dominated pre-PED and took it to another level at the height of the PED era. He won seven MVP's including three in four years before his hat size changed. With apologies to Braves fans, he probably should have won four in a row during that early 90's stretch. In the era where PEDs were prevalent and not illegal for the sport he dominated like no other. >>
Bonds left the Pirates with 176 homeruns with a career batting average in the low .280's if I recall correctly. I have heard others say he reminded them of a better version of his dad before PEDs. I agree with that. Bonds might have been a 400 career home run guy clean. He probably would have made the HOF, but the numbers wouldn't have been anything close to how they turned out. A healthy Griffey Jr was the better player of the 2 back then.
garnettstyle, I see what you did there. After knowing what he said, it's hard to look at him the same, I know. He really disappointed me. I try to look at him like I do Pete Rose and focus on what they did on the field as opposed to what I know they are about as a person.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Bonds won 2 MVPs and was runner up the other year within a three year span as a Pirate. Simply batting average is one of the most misleading stats (almost as misleading as a pitcher's win total) by which to accurately gauge the ability and impact of a player. Even the normally myopic writers realized that when voting back then. >>
I know he won the MVP's, but who was his real competition? Griffey and Frank Thomas were in the other league.
Bonds average right at 25 homeruns a year for the Pirates. He would have had to do that for at least 16 seasons without breaking down with age to have reached 400.
He left the Pirates after seven full seasons of compiling a .275 average, 176 homeruns, and 556 rbi's. Most clean players start breaking down in their early to mid 30's. So let project Bonds another 10 seasons as a clean player and where would the stats would have been?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You're going to dig deeper than the simple home runs, rbi and batting average to gauge how good Barry was while on the Pirates. There's a valid reason he won those MVPs and then a thurd MVP the season after leaving the Pirates. Perhaps skinpinch or dallasactuary will chime in here to enlighten though I know dallas can't stand Barry, personally, lol.. >>
MVP's are not as hard to win if you competition is not all that strong. Like I said, Frank Thomas and Griffey Jr were in the other league. I guess you could also toss Canseco's name in too since he was a dominant force in the AL at that time.
Barry could run, but had a weak arm in the outfield. So what else do you have if you want to discount the career batting average of .275, 25 homers, and less than 80 RBI's a year?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Start looking at Barry"s stats from 1990 forward: OBP%, SLG%, OPS, OPS+. An OPS+ of 100 is considered average. Barry doubled that in both his MVP seasons while with the Pirates. He was putting up monster numbers during that era. >>
I see them. He was reaching his peak and that would have came back down as he reached his early to mid 30's just like it has for every other clean player as they age and break down. Barry Bonds would have been more of an Andrew McCutchen without PED's than anything. A good flashy player, but not an all time great, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You are entitled to your opinion. >>
Everyone is.
Bonds finished 7 full seasons with the Pirates. He left with a .275 batting average, 176 hrs, 556 rbi's. Let's take a clean Barry and give him the benefit of the doubt and say he would have averaged 30 a season for the next 10 years without breaking down(next to impossible). That would have placed him as a clean and aging 37 year old with 476 homeruns and a batting average more than likely in the high .270 something range. Where does he rank then? A better on base version of Dale Murphy or Eric Davis?
ETA: And again, batting average is a very superficial stat by which to gauge a hitter, despite the backs of baseball cards.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>If you don't believe Barry wasn't already a first ballot HOFer before he began using PEDs, there's no point in taking this conversation further. Carry on..
Where did I say that? If you go back and look at my first comment on Bonds, it's just the opposite of what you are implying.
A clean Bonds would have more than likely been a 400HR/400SB guy, with a career batting average in the .270's, with an on base near .400.
<< <i>Bonds
Mays
Rose
Henderson
I left the known racist off the list. >>
+1
I totally hear what you are saying. Surprised he doesn't get enough bad publicity for his comments. Surprised his card values are still high too.
Mays
Bonds
Clemens
Pujols
1. Mays
2. Aaron
3. Ted Williams's Cryogenic Head
4. Frank Robinson
-Doug (1all)
<< <i>
<< <i>Bonds won 2 MVPs and was runner up the other year within a three year span as a Pirate. Simply batting average is one of the most misleading stats (almost as misleading as a pitcher's win total) by which to accurately gauge the ability and impact of a player. Even the normally myopic writers realized that when voting back then. >>
I know he won the MVP's, but who was his real competition? Griffey and Frank Thomas were in the other league.
Bonds average right at 25 homeruns a year for the Pirates. He would have had to do that for at least 16 seasons without breaking down with age to have reached 400. >>
National league had better pitching.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED