<< <i>We need a separate physical market that operates apart from the paper market. >>
We have that already.
The physical market is called "collectibles", and these small fetish items are priced differently (higher) per ounce than contracts for 1000 oz bars of boring industrial .999 silver. And the market for physical scrap silver of lower purity typically causes such junk to trade for *less* than spot.
But we all knew this. >>
Incorrect. Only difference in physical price is the premium added to the paper price. Physical bullion price is still set by paper price. This is easily seen in bullion dealer on-line prices that are tagged to spot price and automatically rise and fall in tandem with paper price.
Rare collectibles that contain silver are the exception.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
We need a separate physical market that operates apart from the paper market.
Without a paper price instrument to attract large investors, the market for silver could be very very thin and at a much lower price than presently found via paper. Prices could become very localized and volatile.
Price discovery would be very infantile and chaotic.
Physical silver needs a paper market. The paper market does not need physical
This is such BS. Whenever a real non-banking entity takes a large paper position in silver with the intent to take delivery of the physical metal, the rules all get changed or other "incentives" are pushed on the buyer to preventing them from taking actual delivery.
The paper silver market can't supply real silver for most of its contracts, if the buyers should all want to take delivery. If you can't back up a leveraged contract with real silver, that's fraud. I wouldn't know what else to call it. But since the banking system operates that way fundamentally, it no longer even raises an eyebrow.
However, at some point it will probably raise a bunch of eyebrows.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
The physical market is called "collectibles", and these small fetish items are priced differently (higher) per ounce than contracts for 1000 oz bars of boring industrial .999 silver.
Do you buy a small 4 oz. fetish-sized box of Wheaties at the boutique grocer that is priced higher per ounce, or do you opt for a pallet of the man-sized 64 oz. boxes at Sam's club to get a better price?
Of course you know that 1 oz. silver is more practical, more divisible and has higher per unit fabrication & handling costs. (Of course, you knew this all along.)
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Do you buy a small 4 oz. fetish-sized box of Wheaties at the boutique grocer that is priced higher per ounce, or do you opt for a pallet of the man-sized 64 oz. boxes at Sam's club to get a better price?
You strengthen my point for me, thank you. I've done both (purchasing strategies, not specifically for wheaties), depending on the circumstances. But predictably, usually opt for the 12 or 16 ounce box from the regular grocery store.
And it makes perfect sense for my why the small box there and then costs more per ounce of food than the giant pallet there and then, and it's not a conspiracy, but economics and logistics ( and convenience! )
<< <i>Do you buy a small 4 oz. fetish-sized box of Wheaties at the boutique grocer that is priced higher per ounce, or do you opt for a pallet of the man-sized 64 oz. boxes at Sam's club to get a better price?
You strengthen my point for me, thank you. I've done both (purchasing strategies, not specifically for wheaties), depending on the circumstances. But predictably, usually opt for the 12 or 16 ounce box from the regular grocery store.
And it makes perfect sense for my why the small box there and then costs more per ounce of food than the giant pallet there and then, and it's not a conspiracy, but economics and logistics edit: and convenience! >>
At least the price doesn't change by the time you get to the checkout lane?
The physical market is called "collectibles", and these small fetish items are priced differently (higher) per ounce than contracts for 1000 oz bars of boring industrial .999 silver. And the market for physical scrap silver of lower purity typically causes such junk to trade for *less* than spot.
Incorrect. Only difference in physical price is the premium added to the paper price. Physical bullion price is still set by paper price
Partly correct. The difference in physical price over the paper price is for the Quality and Location of the pieces of metal
Thought experiment: You know what one of your rolls of ASE can bring in the market today, right? Now take the roll, dump out the coins, take a hunting knife and scratch a big X on both sides of each of the 20 coins, then advertise them for sale for local pickup in a spot in the middle of the Everglades. Still 20 oz of silver.. How much are they "worth"?
<< <i>Thought experiment: You know what one of your rolls of ASE can bring in the market today, right? Now take the roll, dump out the coins, take a hunting knife and scratch a big X on both sides of each of the 20 coins, then advertise them for sale for local pickup in a spot in the middle of the Everglades. Still 20 oz of silver.. How much are they "worth"? >>
Premium is determined by demand and by rarity. The moment you X'ed your common ASE's you reduced the demand and the premium for them.
Thought experiment: What you will get for them will still be determined by paper price.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
When you've purchased a monster box for over $20K, it's the same weight under $10K. A guy can buy 2 for 1 now. No great loss, if he's selling $5 over spot on the lower priced box. If he held the first one, he got caught up with the hype of BUILDING wealth when he should be swimming in, not sinking under from it. It's a wash. Over time, it's still the same thing. A risky investment is risky. Stocks, bonds, treasuries, certificates of deposit, a home, real estate…. Divesting in anything has it's ups and downs. Paper is still the product we write on about it (it being precious ) . Except for the internet where pages and pages are cached with our opinions of WHY and How it is what it is, most of the deals are on paper for days before the product is in hand , nowadays. And even though the price is dropping , the premiums are increasing. DEMAND is a funny thing compared to supply.
Thought experiment: What you will get for them will still be determined by paper price.
Again, partly correct. What you get for them will be determined by Marketing and Arbitrage.
Yes, the base or starting price will be dialy spot (the "paper price" quoted so frequently)
but how, to whom, where you sell them, how you advertise, package, deliver the goods will also affect the price.
In other words, time and energy and the accident and intention of location in space all affects the price.
Sure, one can "start" with spot, but the eagles described are not worth anything to me if I have to spend ANY effort to get them. I'll pay spot minus $5 each, delivered to my PO box.
Others will pay more, maybe up to spot. on this forum. Guy on the street does not want them at any price.
Convince someone that your X is art, you might get double, triple spot.
<<How would this often lauded "physical market" exactly work?>>
Here's your non-hypothetical answer:
When you've purchased a monster box for over $20K, it's the same weight under $10K. A guy can buy 2 for 1 now. No great loss, if he's selling $5 over spot on the lower priced box. If he held the first one, he got caught up with the hype of BUILDING wealth when he should be swimming in, not sinking under from it. It's a wash. Over time, it's still the same thing. A risky investment is risky. Stocks, bonds, treasuries, certificates of deposit, a home, real estate…. Divesting in anything has it's ups and downs.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>How would this often lauded "physical market" exactly work? >>
First off, if the ones that wanted to make it happen could make it happen it would have already happened, so there's that.
I would suggest and this is just brainstorming:
Paper trades that actually result in a transfer of physical.
Major sales/purchases from the U. S. and other mints.
Sales to APs.
Major sales/purchases by refiners.
Any purchase of 5,000 or more ounces by or from a dealer.
There are a lot of sales that would/could never get recorded because they aren't timely or guaranteed.
It's just frustrating to buy say gold only to be under water with it by the time it gets delivered. Unless it's already presold and paid for I'm sure dealers have the same concerns.
<< <i>All you seem to be referencing is a buyer who bought and took physical possession. That says nothing about price discovery in a physical market world.
Maybe that's what it "seems". But maybe Joe has some boots on the ground experience in "making a market" day in and day out, and I respect that. >>
But may John realizes that we are in a global environment now and what gold or silver my locally trade for in Podunk, Idaho is not exactly what the rest of the world might have in mind as a "market". >>
That's true worldwide not just Podunk, Idaho. Doesn't matter whether it's paper or physical either.
If the Mint bought 25 million ounces of silver, they might be more inclined to sell ASEs at $2 over cost instead of some constantly changing paper number. Most of us little dabblers are pretty much stuck with needing to sell at cost unless we want to lose $$$.
But may John realizes that we are in a global environment now and what gold or silver my locally trade for in Podunk, Idaho is not exactly what the rest of the world might have in mind as a "market".
Joe makes a market in physical silver every day. I'm curious for your explanation as to how that's not a real market.
All Comex does is to go out on a limb, cook the books, and hope that nobody really wants delivery. That works until it doesn't. Comex changes their rules when the market moves against them. That's not a market, that's simply unethical behavior.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>But may John realizes that we are in a global environment now and what gold or silver my locally trade for in Podunk, Idaho is not exactly what the rest of the world might have in mind as a "market".
Joe makes a market in physical silver every day. I'm curious for your explanation as to how that's not a real market.
All Comex does is to go out on a limb, cook the books, and hope that nobody really wants delivery. That works until it doesn't. Comex changes their rules when the market moves against them. That's not a market, that's simply unethical behavior. >>
Unethical behavior is a very charitable way to describe our current situation. And it goes way beyond the metals markets.
Why not start with the denomination? Without paper to assist in price discovery, isn't that what ASEs are really worth? >>
You have the same thing with Morgans, but only a true idiot would sell one for face value. >>
I get that. So what would they be worth if there was not a much larger paper market bringing global liquidity into pricing discovery? >>
They would be worth whatever silver is worth by whatever system is used to measure the value of the silver. If there wasn't a paper value, there would be a physical value or perhaps maybe even something else.
it seems to me that the "actual value" any bit of matter (aka "phyzz") is the amount that a willing buyer and seller exchange for the object.
Any other value is a "paper value," a number that is an abstraction apart from the "reality" that is created in the situation above.
The "paper value" may or not accurately reflect what the "actual value" would be upon consumating the transaction, usually it is a pretty good prediction, unless the markets are in "disorder"
there wasn't a paper value, there would be a physical value
And this would be a value constant across the country, or the world, or even your town?
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today?
<< <i>there wasn't a paper value, there would be a physical value
And this would be a value constant across the country, or the world, or even your town?
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today? >>
I expect it would still be priced closed to what it was when spot was in effect. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be selling his for less than cost. He could offer me $10, but he would pay only if there was a sale. Of course even with spot pricing in effect, silver trades at a range of prices. It would be interesting what might happen if the mint started selling ASEs at $2 over cost.
So what would they be worth if there was not a much larger paper market bringing global liquidity into pricing discovery?
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today?
With today's instant access to global news sources it would take no time at all to find out where physical metal is actually being traded and the pricing involved. And yes there would be local and regional trading of physical metal in short order. Nobody needs the banks trading uncovered shorts and the regulators in bed with them.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
It took the CFTC 5 years and who knows how many dollars of taxpayer's money to investigate JPMorgan for silver market manipulation. And found no cause for concern. Anyone else know where 5 year SEC/CFTC investigations into potentially illegal bond, stock, or commodity trading came up empty handed (non-PMs that is....lol).
Bought a monster box a few weeks ago for $9250. Sold it. Bought another monster box a few weeks ago for $9255. Sold it. The price of silver has gone down in the past few weeks .
A monster box is around $9650.
Here is the silver chart for July, so far :
Doesn't appear to be doing anything abnormal. Has anyone watched the historical charts , or paint dry ? When it sat at $5 near 1980 to $15 in 2007. That went for 25 years. What's a couple months ? Tanking isn't the word. It's not really that volatile , in the scope of time.
<< <i>Bought a monster box a few weeks ago for $9250. Sold it. Bought another monster box a few weeks ago for $9255. Sold it. The price of silver has gone down in the past few weeks .
A monster box is around $9650.
Here is the silver chart for July, so far :
Doesn't appear to be doing anything abnormal. Has anyone watched the historical charts , or paint dry ? When it sat at $5 near 1980 to $15 in 2007. That went for 25 years. What's a couple months ? Tanking isn't the word. It's not really that volatile , in the scope of time.
Stuck in the middle with you. >>
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that.
<< <i> It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that. >>
That's true, but if you bought 20 monster boxes at x over spot and set a sale price at z over spot and spot drops to x-1 before you sell all 20 boxes, then you still have to maintain your selling price [which makes it appear that you've raised your premium] or lose $$$ on the remaining unsold boxes. Or you just sit on it until spot rises enough to make selling profitable.
<< <i> It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that. >>
"You can obstruct price discovery and you can disguise and distort the real value of things. But Mr. Market will get even someday. He always does." - Bill Bonner
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
They are tanking because they were overvalued. The fear that drove their prices up turned out not to be founded in reality. The hyperinflation and economic downturn so many stackers predicted never materialized.
Positive BST transactions with Timbuk3, coindeuce, charlottedude.
<< <i>They are tanking because they were overvalued. The fear that drove their prices up turned out not to be founded in reality. The hyperinflation and economic downturn so many stackers predicted never materialized. >>
They are tanking (and will continue to do so) because most asset classes, especially commodities, are tanking. A growing bout of deflation is a primary reason. Historically, heavy deflation is followed by heavy inflation because economic puppeteers over react to stimulate inflation. Currently the price of oil and the euro's affect on the dollar index are leading the PM price charge. Because value (price) drops does not necessarily indicate something was overvalued. It only means a new value is justified because of changing conditions. The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>They are tanking because they were overvalued. The fear that drove their prices up turned out not to be founded in reality. The hyperinflation and economic downturn so many stackers predicted never materialized. >>
They are tanking (and will continue to do so) because most asset classes, especially commodities, are tanking. A growing bout of deflation is a primary reason. Historically, heavy deflation is followed by heavy inflation because economic puppeteers over react to stimulate inflation. Currently the price of oil and the euro's affect on the dollar index are leading the PM price charge. Because value (price) drops does not necessarily indicate something was overvalued. It only means a new value is justified because of changing conditions. The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized. >>
So go and get long NUGT and JNUG right now....you can buy AU, PPLT, AGQ, GLD, GDX, SGOL, etc...
Positive BST transactions with Timbuk3, coindeuce, charlottedude.
The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized. >>
The stackers failed, period, the ones that didn't sell silver with a 6x to 10x gain you lost, gold with 2x+ you lost, you own it above spot now, you lost... Heck gold has never even hit it's inflation adjusted high, how can one claim some type of victory??? If it hits that you still lose because of time...
why buy gold in a depresssion when you can buy real estate at a massive discount also, that RE can produce tangibles, every thing goes up in inflation gold does not perform as more excellent than any other asset, time and history have already spoken...
What's price of silver and gold in Mexico??? How many times has there currency failed in past 30 years or so??? Argentina??? Cuba??? USSR???
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>We need a separate physical market that operates apart from the paper market. >>
We have that already.
The physical market is called "collectibles", and these small fetish items are priced differently (higher) per ounce than contracts for 1000 oz bars of boring industrial .999 silver.
And the market for physical scrap silver of lower purity typically causes such junk to trade for *less* than spot.
But we all knew this. >>
Incorrect. Only difference in physical price is the premium added to the paper price. Physical bullion price is still set by paper price. This is easily seen in bullion dealer on-line prices that are tagged to spot price and automatically rise and fall in tandem with paper price.
Rare collectibles that contain silver are the exception.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>
<< <i>Metals tanking.....cause? Haven't seen such a drop in quite a while. >>
Manipulation by evil banksters, ain't that right guys? >>
They're not that evil. They are just the agents acting on behalf of the evil.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Its always about manipulation, right derry?
Textsupposed one could start a market in moon dust even tho nobody on earth [save maybe NASA] has any?
Does anyone actually have a call option on IBM? Yet they are traded freely everyday.
Paper creates interest and facilitates easy transactions. What would a refiner pay if he had no way to protect himself? More or less?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Without a paper price instrument to attract large investors, the market for silver could be very very thin and at a much lower price than presently found via paper. Prices could become very localized and volatile.
Price discovery would be very infantile and chaotic.
Physical silver needs a paper market. The paper market does not need physical
This is such BS. Whenever a real non-banking entity takes a large paper position in silver with the intent to take delivery of the physical metal, the rules all get changed or other "incentives" are pushed on the buyer to preventing them from taking actual delivery.
The paper silver market can't supply real silver for most of its contracts, if the buyers should all want to take delivery. If you can't back up a leveraged contract with real silver, that's fraud. I wouldn't know what else to call it. But since the banking system operates that way fundamentally, it no longer even raises an eyebrow.
However, at some point it will probably raise a bunch of eyebrows.
I knew it would happen.
Do you buy a small 4 oz. fetish-sized box of Wheaties at the boutique grocer that is priced higher per ounce, or do you opt for a pallet of the man-sized 64 oz. boxes at Sam's club to get a better price?
Of course you know that 1 oz. silver is more practical, more divisible and has higher per unit fabrication & handling costs. (Of course, you knew this all along.)
I knew it would happen.
You strengthen my point for me, thank you. I've done both (purchasing strategies, not specifically for wheaties), depending on the circumstances. But predictably, usually opt for the 12 or 16 ounce box from the regular grocery store.
And it makes perfect sense for my why the small box there and then costs more per ounce of food than the giant pallet there and then, and it's not a conspiracy, but economics and logistics ( and convenience! )
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Do you buy a small 4 oz. fetish-sized box of Wheaties at the boutique grocer that is priced higher per ounce, or do you opt for a pallet of the man-sized 64 oz. boxes at Sam's club to get a better price?
You strengthen my point for me, thank you. I've done both (purchasing strategies, not specifically for wheaties), depending on the circumstances. But predictably, usually opt for the 12 or 16 ounce box from the regular grocery store.
And it makes perfect sense for my why the small box there and then costs more per ounce of food than the giant pallet there and then, and it's not a conspiracy, but economics and logistics edit: and convenience! >>
At least the price doesn't change by the time you get to the checkout lane?
And the market for physical scrap silver of lower purity typically causes such junk to trade for *less* than spot.
Incorrect. Only difference in physical price is the premium added to the paper price. Physical bullion price is still set by paper price
Partly correct. The difference in physical price over the paper price is for the Quality and Location of the pieces of metal
Thought experiment: You know what one of your rolls of ASE can bring in the market today, right? Now take the roll, dump out the coins, take a hunting knife and scratch a big X on both sides of each of the 20 coins, then advertise them for sale for local pickup in a spot in the middle of the Everglades. Still 20 oz of silver.. How much are they "worth"?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Thought experiment: You know what one of your rolls of ASE can bring in the market today, right? Now take the roll, dump out the coins, take a hunting knife and scratch a big X on both sides of each of the 20 coins, then advertise them for sale for local pickup in a spot in the middle of the Everglades. Still 20 oz of silver.. How much are they "worth"? >>
Premium is determined by demand and by rarity. The moment you X'ed your common ASE's you reduced the demand and the premium for them.
Thought experiment: What you will get for them will still be determined by paper price.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
Paper is still the product we write on about it (it being precious ) . Except for the internet where pages and pages are cached with our opinions of WHY and How it is what it is, most of the deals are on paper for days before the product is in hand , nowadays. And even though the price is dropping , the premiums are increasing. DEMAND is a funny thing compared to supply.
Again, partly correct. What you get for them will be determined by Marketing and Arbitrage.
Yes, the base or starting price will be dialy spot (the "paper price" quoted so frequently)
but how, to whom, where you sell them, how you advertise, package, deliver the goods will also affect the price.
In other words, time and energy and the accident and intention of location in space all affects the price.
Sure, one can "start" with spot, but the eagles described are not worth anything to me if I have to spend ANY effort to get them. I'll pay spot minus $5 each, delivered to my PO box.
Others will pay more, maybe up to spot. on this forum. Guy on the street does not want them at any price.
Convince someone that your X is art, you might get double, triple spot.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Why not start with the denomination? Without paper to assist in price discovery, isn't that what ASEs are really worth?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>one can "start" with spot
Why not start with the denomination? Without paper to assist in price discovery, isn't that what ASEs are really worth? >>
You have the same thing with Morgans, but only a true idiot would sell one for face value.
Here's your non-hypothetical answer:
When you've purchased a monster box for over $20K, it's the same weight under $10K. A guy can buy 2 for 1 now. No great loss, if he's selling $5 over spot on the lower priced box. If he held the first one, he got caught up with the hype of BUILDING wealth when he should be swimming in, not sinking under from it. It's a wash. Over time, it's still the same thing. A risky investment is risky. Stocks, bonds, treasuries, certificates of deposit, a home, real estate…. Divesting in anything has it's ups and downs.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>How would this often lauded "physical market" exactly work? >>
First off, if the ones that wanted to make it happen could make it happen it would have already happened, so there's that.
I would suggest and this is just brainstorming:
Paper trades that actually result in a transfer of physical.
Major sales/purchases from the U. S. and other mints.
Sales to APs.
Major sales/purchases by refiners.
Any purchase of 5,000 or more ounces by or from a dealer.
There are a lot of sales that would/could never get recorded because they aren't timely or guaranteed.
It's just frustrating to buy say gold only to be under water with it by the time it gets delivered. Unless it's already presold and paid for I'm sure dealers have the same concerns.
Maybe that's what it "seems". But maybe Joe has some boots on the ground experience in "making a market" day in and day out, and I respect that.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>All you seem to be referencing is a buyer who bought and took physical possession. That says nothing about price discovery in a physical market world.
Maybe that's what it "seems". But maybe Joe has some boots on the ground experience in "making a market" day in and day out, and I respect that. >>
But may John realizes that we are in a global environment now and what gold or silver my locally trade for in Podunk, Idaho is not exactly what the rest of the world might have in mind as a "market". >>
That's true worldwide not just Podunk, Idaho. Doesn't matter whether it's paper or physical either.
If the Mint bought 25 million ounces of silver, they might be more inclined to sell ASEs at $2 over cost instead of some constantly changing paper number. Most of us little dabblers are pretty much stuck with needing to sell at cost unless we want to lose $$$.
Joe makes a market in physical silver every day. I'm curious for your explanation as to how that's not a real market.
All Comex does is to go out on a limb, cook the books, and hope that nobody really wants delivery. That works until it doesn't. Comex changes their rules when the market moves against them. That's not a market, that's simply unethical behavior.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>one can "start" with spot
Why not start with the denomination? Without paper to assist in price discovery, isn't that what ASEs are really worth? >>
You have the same thing with Morgans, but only a true idiot would sell one for face value. >>
I get that. So what would they be worth if there was not a much larger paper market bringing global liquidity into pricing discovery?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
As soon as you take the keys to your new house car you are unter water. Why should gold be different from any other asset?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>But may John realizes that we are in a global environment now and what gold or silver my locally trade for in Podunk, Idaho is not exactly what the rest of the world might have in mind as a "market".
Joe makes a market in physical silver every day. I'm curious for your explanation as to how that's not a real market.
All Comex does is to go out on a limb, cook the books, and hope that nobody really wants delivery. That works until it doesn't. Comex changes their rules when the market moves against them. That's not a market, that's simply unethical behavior. >>
Unethical behavior is a very charitable way to describe our current situation. And it goes way beyond the metals markets.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>one can "start" with spot
Why not start with the denomination? Without paper to assist in price discovery, isn't that what ASEs are really worth? >>
You have the same thing with Morgans, but only a true idiot would sell one for face value. >>
I get that. So what would they be worth if there was not a much larger paper market bringing global liquidity into pricing discovery? >>
They would be worth whatever silver is worth by whatever system is used to measure the value of the silver. If there wasn't a paper value, there would be a physical value or perhaps maybe even something else.
Any other value is a "paper value," a number that is an abstraction apart from the "reality" that is created in the situation above.
The "paper value" may or not accurately reflect what the "actual value" would be upon consumating the transaction, usually it is a pretty good prediction, unless the markets are in "disorder"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
And this would be a value constant across the country, or the world, or even your town?
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>there wasn't a paper value, there would be a physical value
And this would be a value constant across the country, or the world, or even your town?
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today? >>
I expect it would still be priced closed to what it was when spot was in effect. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be selling his for less than cost. He could offer me $10, but he would pay only if there was a sale. Of course even with spot pricing in effect, silver trades at a range of prices. It would be interesting what might happen if the mint started selling ASEs at $2 over cost.
<< <i>it seems to me that the "actual value" any bit of matter (aka "phyzz") is the amount that a willing buyer and seller exchange for the object.
>>
That's just a sale or a price. Whether you end up getting value for what you spent is another matter.
Suppose paper silver stopped trading at midnight tonight. How much would your local dealer pay you for your silver if you walked in tomorrow morning? More or less than what he us paying today?
With today's instant access to global news sources it would take no time at all to find out where physical metal is actually being traded and the pricing involved. And yes there would be local and regional trading of physical metal in short order. Nobody needs the banks trading uncovered shorts and the regulators in bed with them.
I knew it would happen.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Bought another monster box a few weeks ago for $9255. Sold it.
The price of silver has gone down in the past few weeks .
A monster box is around $9650.
Here is the silver chart for July, so far :
Doesn't appear to be doing anything abnormal. Has anyone watched the historical charts , or paint dry ? When it sat at $5 near 1980 to $15 in 2007. That went for 25 years. What's a couple months ? Tanking isn't the word. It's not really that volatile , in the scope of time.
Stuck in the middle with you.
<< <i>Bought a monster box a few weeks ago for $9250. Sold it.
Bought another monster box a few weeks ago for $9255. Sold it.
The price of silver has gone down in the past few weeks .
A monster box is around $9650.
Here is the silver chart for July, so far :
Doesn't appear to be doing anything abnormal. Has anyone watched the historical charts , or paint dry ? When it sat at $5 near 1980 to $15 in 2007. That went for 25 years. What's a couple months ? Tanking isn't the word. It's not really that volatile , in the scope of time.
Stuck in the middle with you.
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that. >>
That's true, but if you bought 20 monster boxes at x over spot and set a sale price at z over spot and spot drops to x-1 before you sell all 20 boxes, then you still have to maintain your selling price [which makes it appear that you've raised your premium] or lose $$$ on the remaining unsold boxes. Or you just sit on it until spot rises enough to make selling profitable.
<< <i>
It's probably pretty likely that somewhere someone's cost hasn't changed just because spot did.
Well, that's a fair point, isn't it?
The cost was what it was, and the current market value is what it is, and no amount of explanation, rationalization, or "they should"s can change that. >>
Lather, rinse, repeat.
<< <i>Bought today. Sold today. What is the cause of this ?
You had a seller and a buyer maybe?
The market is open, daily. Where's the floor ?
<< <i>The market is open, daily. Where's the floor ? >>
Wherever you are standing...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>My targets have been $888 gold and $12 silver. At those prices I'm backing up the truck, beep beep beep. >>
Where to?? Out of the ditch???...
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>My targets have been $888 gold and $12 silver. At those prices I'm backing up the truck, beep beep beep. >>
We will see $12 silver before we see your gold target IMO. Not sure if we will actually get to $12, but we might!
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
<< <i>They are tanking because they were overvalued. The fear that drove their prices up turned out not to be founded in reality. The hyperinflation and economic downturn so many stackers predicted never materialized. >>
They are tanking (and will continue to do so) because most asset classes, especially commodities, are tanking. A growing bout of deflation is a primary reason. Historically, heavy deflation is followed by heavy inflation because economic puppeteers over react to stimulate inflation. Currently the price of oil and the euro's affect on the dollar index are leading the PM price charge. Because value (price) drops does not necessarily indicate something was overvalued. It only means a new value is justified because of changing conditions. The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized.
Natural forces of supply and demand are the best regulators on earth.
<< <i>
<< <i>They are tanking because they were overvalued. The fear that drove their prices up turned out not to be founded in reality. The hyperinflation and economic downturn so many stackers predicted never materialized. >>
They are tanking (and will continue to do so) because most asset classes, especially commodities, are tanking. A growing bout of deflation is a primary reason. Historically, heavy deflation is followed by heavy inflation because economic puppeteers over react to stimulate inflation. Currently the price of oil and the euro's affect on the dollar index are leading the PM price charge. Because value (price) drops does not necessarily indicate something was overvalued. It only means a new value is justified because of changing conditions. The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized. >>
So go and get long NUGT and JNUG right now....you can buy AU, PPLT, AGQ, GLD, GDX, SGOL, etc...
The stackers will be proven correct, new highs will be realized. >>
The stackers failed, period, the ones that didn't sell silver with a 6x to 10x gain you lost, gold with 2x+ you lost, you own it above spot now, you lost...
Heck gold has never even hit it's inflation adjusted high, how can one claim some type of victory??? If it hits that you still lose because of time...
why buy gold in a depresssion when you can buy real estate at a massive discount also, that RE can produce tangibles, every thing goes up in inflation gold does not perform as more excellent than any other asset, time and history have already spoken...
What's price of silver and gold in Mexico??? How many times has there currency failed in past 30 years or so??? Argentina??? Cuba??? USSR???