Even a few years ago coins with the Nazi emblem were (if not rare) hesitantly marketed.
I've seen a few lately boldly presented with 24K gilding and many presented as if very rare.
I do wonder about the amounts that have survived. I've a strange feeling that they have been unobtrusively hoarded and are now seeing the light of day.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
I only have a couple of US coins any more including one from the War of Northern Aggression, as they call it in the south.
1925 Stone Mt., I'm sure this is offensive to some.
1936 Texas, next thing you know this will offend someone since it was stolen from Mexico.
When I was a youngster growing up in the Carolinas I was taught that the south didn't really lose, Grant stole Lee's sword and Lee was too much of a gentleman to ask for it back.
For me, if I collected that period in time, certainly CSA or even Nazi items would be of historical significance.
The US Civil War is fraught with mis-information. Even that stupid movie Lincoln (with Daniel Day Lewis) got it wrong.
People need to study up on actual, correct history -- not the nonsense that gets spread by media, politicians and those who think a sound bite from your neighbor is sufficient.
While I totally abhor slavery under any guise or justification, I can absolutely understand why the southern states wanted to secede from the Union. The War was minimally about slavery, and predominantly about economics. Just like the US Revolutionary War (not about political representation!!!)... Boston and NYC wanted to dominate Charleston, and the best way to do that was to make trouble for the southern states' labor source.
I'm sure that Lincoln cared about the slavery issue. His letters support that analysis. But, in his letters, he felt that his main duty as President of the USA was to preserve the Union. That was the #1 duty also of President Jackson (a southerner), who invaded Charleston in 1836. The secondary objective for Lincoln was slavery. And, his Proclamation of 1863 only freed the Negros in the southern states. No mention was made of the ones in the northern states (labor!) nor of the other slaves (like the Irish and Scots and other peoples).
Stone Mtn, GA, has mixed meaning. It makes sense to want to honor Davis, Lee and Jackson. Two of the three were the best military officers ever produced in the United States. And, Davis defended the south from the economic aggression of the northern states. It's too bad that that site was also used by the <ahem> "Christian" KKK.
The US Navy has a nuclear aircraft carrier named after a southern politician who supported racial segregation: John C. Stennis. Look him up if you want to know why the USN has a strategic asset named after him.
The point is that people need to learn the history absent bias, and they'll realize that most of the "bad" and "good" events in history are actually mixed and can be either depending on one's perspective and context.
For the record, I'm glad that the Union was preserved. (Sorry JCM!) It is these United States that allow me to say what I want without fear of politically or legally saying the wrong thing...
And as far as New Mexico (all of it, from the Rio Grande to the Russian River, and certainly including Texas), the USA got it in the fairest way possible for its time: we beat the Mexicans politically and militarily. Santa Ana had no business leading an army. He was unbelievably inept.
That is not how issues are settled in the 21st Century (or, shouldn't be -- someone should tell China!) any more, but they certainly were done that way in the early 19th Century.
EVP I really enjoyed your write up. My fear is that politically motivated action and disregard of historical events end up leading to curtailing of freedoms. I am Jewish and own a coin with a swastika and do not mind it being sold on eBay. I can not change past historical events while I can definitely learn from them.
While this is the World Coin forum and please understand I respect that, I will add some thoughts.
We are unable to change history. However, we can and should learn from where we have been in an effort to improve in creating a better direction for the future. What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
From the article, … with a white man now in custody in connection with those killings
IMO this is a perfect example of the media twisting the facts to sensationalize their story. First of all, he's not a man by any standards. He's a young adult, if that. Secondly, he's not in custody because he's been "connected" to the killings. Everyone knows he did it in cold blood. He is the killer. Saying he's "in custody in connection" makes it sound like he's a suspect and might be released. He is lucky the police didn't shoot him upon his arrest (others have been, and for lesser crimes).
Maybe I am mincing words but this kind of reporting rubs me the wrong way.
<< <i>EVP I really enjoyed your write up. My fear is that politically motivated action … >>
I think this act by eBay is marketing-motivated not political. eBay is just trying to ride the latest wave of media to increase traffic to their site(s), IMHO. If for some reason everyone was suddenly a fan of the Confederate flag then eBay would probably make it their banner background.
FWIW, the Confederate flag - in my opinion - is a piece of history that belongs in history museums and history books and not on flagpoles, license plates, etc. We've had many flags in our nation's history, including prior versions of the national flag. I don't see why the Confederate flag should bear any more significance nor be displayed publicly.
Nazi swastika, since it has already been mentioned ... imagine if Germany decided to put swastika on their license plates? What message would that send? What would be gained?
LochNESS - what troubles me is the trigger for this. It's purely political linked to a broader PC agenda. This is not about a flag or historical context, its about votes. I remind all that democrats were pro slavery, yet the discussion ends with the soundbite.
As per coinkat:
"What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was."
<< <i> For the record, I'm glad that the Union was preserved. (Sorry JCM!) It is these United States that allow me to say what I want without fear of politically or legally saying the wrong thing...
EVP >>
My ancestors fought on both sides of the Revolution and certainly both sides of the Civil War. I do not believe that now 150 years later affecting bans on flags etc from that time serves any purpose. If anything all the attention on the flag is distracting and pointless - how about focusing on the individual who committed such a heinous act? What if he was pictured with the US flag instead, would we then institute a ban on the Stars and Stripes because someone misused them?
Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
<< <i>While I totally abhor slavery under any guise or justification, I can absolutely understand why the southern states wanted to secede from the Union. The War was minimally about slavery, and predominantly about economics.
EVP >>
EVP you make some good points but I have to disagree with you on this one. The American civil war was not minimally about slavery. While it is overly simplistic to say that civil war was only about the freedom of black slaves, or only about "states' rights" or only about sectionalism, tariffs, or any number of other causes, the institution of slavery was the number one single issue that, more than anything else, led to conflict.
I don't think the majority of soldiers on either side enlisted to fight for or against slavery. I don't think the political or military leaders thought they were fighting to preserve or destroy slavery. Nobody wanted to go to war for slavery, but the institution of slavery led to war.
As far as Lincoln's attitudes on slavery, well he was a politician and not some overly benevolent "father of his nation" as he is sometimes portrayed. But he ran on a platform with the number one issue of halting the expansion of slavery, so for his time he was about as anti-slavery as anyone in politics. During the war, he had to placate the slaveholding Northern states that stayed loyal to the Union, and could not simply set ending slavery as his political goal at the beginning of the conflict, when a Northern victory was by no means assured.
Similarly, at the risk of channeling Godwin's Law, it can be said that WWII was not about the Holocaust and racism, and in a narrow view that is true, but in a larger sense it is false.
<< <i>While this is the World Coin forum and please understand I respect that, I will add some thoughts.
We are unable to change history. However, we can and should learn from where we have been in an effort to improve in creating a better direction for the future. What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was. >>
It's a very difficult thing, stepping back and trying to see your ancestors and their contemporaries from anything other than a modern viewpoint. Even for highly educated and insightful people, I'm not sure it's possible to do.
I think the bigger issue is not that we measure history by a modern perspective, but rather that we use our own bias to complicate simple things, and simplify complicated things, and fail to appreciate the insight from those that do serious study in these fields.
<< <i>FWIW, the Confederate flag - in my opinion - is a piece of history that belongs in history museums and history books and not on flagpoles, license plates, etc. We've had many flags in our nation's history, including prior versions of the national flag. I don't see why the Confederate flag should bear any more significance nor be displayed publicly. >>
I agree. Have no problem with the Confederate memorabilia being sold on eBay or elsewhere. Censorship does not hide the past, but there's no good reason to fly the Confederate battle flag, a symbol of racism (like it or not), above public government buildings.
As far as the swastika, it can be found on ancient coins of many cultures. It has religious meaning for Hindus. The symbol itself is harmless, but in the right context the meaning is harmful.
I was so agitated by this thread that I almost emailed Zohar. I try to avoid this sort of pot-boiler, but I am gland to see that Nap points out much with which I agree. In the antebellum South, slavery and economics were incestually entangled. I also would point out that the commercial interests of New York City were heavily tied to the South's economy, but that is another story. Slavery, in and of itself, may not have driven the States to war, but it certainly motivated key individuals in the country's social structure. Harriet Beecher Stowe's book, "Uncle Tom's Cabin," did not launch the war, but it would have incited those who otherwise would have remained on the sidelines. I made it a point to read it, last year. Very powerful stuff which actually, at one point, did leave my teary eyed. Stowe did not write from some fevered imagination, but rather based her novel on the accounts of escaped slaves and others familiar with the realities down South.
Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis
Just to make sure that what I wrote will not be misinterpreted in terms of how I view matters, the time is overdue for the Confederate Battle Flag to come down from the South Carolina State Capitol. It still has a place in history.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I propose we consider removal of paintings or mention of famous US Presidents and politicians that owned slaves as well. There is no room for them in history. Let's leave only the good ones, so everyone feels good and certain politicians can gain in the short term. Changing history has become a great political tool to sway the numb and growingly ignorant sheeple society. Now changing sports/Hollywood history will be more difficult.
A tiny bit of an apology to the fine forum folks for starting this up, yet just a small one, as I felt it is timely given that 4th of July celebrations are here. While a large number of voting citizens do not know how old the country is, the circumstances of its founding, they will love the political sound bite of flags being removed and commercial bans being applied etc - a media field day - political gain and a politically correct "feel good" coming in at once. Does anyone talk about the slain, their families, the church, the shooter, mental issues, the event itself? No. All that mattered was invoking and capitalizing current political issues (Gun control, race tensions etc.). Divide the people and conquer.
The media's consumers feed off a world of sound bites not realizing the current global instability may lead to similar circumstances that impact them here. Too much information at ones fingertips without a desire to research it, too much complacency and too little interest in the events of the past in general. I personally found this commercial/political Ebay policy as annoying along with the media's ongoing shift from journalism to propaganda. That was the purpose of the thread.
Have a great holiday and in spite of its high relevance to the once greater country we live in, do not take this thread too seriously, as it is solely my rare little rant. Enjoy the day.
I have spent many Hours on political forums on this topic and have learned quite a bit.
The " Bars and Stars " being debated is actually the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. NOT the "Confederate" Battle Flag. A rectangular version was a Confederate Navy Jack.
The North sold the South the Slaves they held and only 3% of the population owned slaves. Those in the North , and Blacks Owned Slaves. They were expensive personal property. Later The Irish indentured servants suffered far greater indignities.
The Civil war WAS NOT FOUGHT TO FREE THE SLAVES. Slavery was Legal in the North a full two years after the North invaded the South. Freed Slave fought for the South , but were not trusted to fight by the North.
The US Flag flew over the slave ships, flew over Northern slavery, and by the Democrat formed and run KKK all the way up till today.
That killer was wearing a Golds Gym shirt,, Is Golds Gym now a racist symbol that should be banned?? Is the American Flag he was burning?? Last I checked Ebay the answer was no,, This is a nothing more that a diversion from the world problems and a reason to divide Americans by a political force with an agenda.
Anyone finding that "stars and bars" offensive needs to go read some more history IMHO.
The equivalent excuse for a Civil war today would be if the North invaded the south over it's Abortion practices.
Is it ok I ask that this thread cease? How it started may marginally have been on topic, but certainly is now off topic.
Of the various respondents, I'm certain that they're all good folk whose sole intention is to have an intellectual debate. I don't think anyone here likes, supports or accepts violence and racism.
Thread header ended per request yet I beg to differ regarding value of such discussion.
A political (propaganda driven) PC culture does not get to the truth, but rather further divides societies. People's different (possibly extreme) views do not go away if suppressed. Take the flag off Ebay, it will become more popular offline.
Comments
I've seen a few lately boldly presented with 24K gilding and many presented as if very rare.
I do wonder about the amounts that have survived. I've a strange feeling that they have been
unobtrusively hoarded and are now seeing the light of day.
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
1925 Stone Mt., I'm sure this is offensive to some.
1936 Texas, next thing you know this will offend someone since it was stolen from Mexico.
When I was a youngster growing up in the Carolinas I was taught that the south didn't really lose, Grant stole Lee's sword and Lee was too much of a gentleman to ask for it back.
For me, if I collected that period in time, certainly CSA or even Nazi items would be of historical significance.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
People need to study up on actual, correct history -- not the nonsense that gets spread by media, politicians and those who think a sound bite from your neighbor is sufficient.
While I totally abhor slavery under any guise or justification, I can absolutely understand why the southern states wanted to secede from the Union. The War was minimally about slavery, and predominantly about economics. Just like the US Revolutionary War (not about political representation!!!)... Boston and NYC wanted to dominate Charleston, and the best way to do that was to make trouble for the southern states' labor source.
I'm sure that Lincoln cared about the slavery issue. His letters support that analysis. But, in his letters, he felt that his main duty as President of the USA was to preserve the Union. That was the #1 duty also of President Jackson (a southerner), who invaded Charleston in 1836. The secondary objective for Lincoln was slavery. And, his Proclamation of 1863 only freed the Negros in the southern states. No mention was made of the ones in the northern states (labor!) nor of the other slaves (like the Irish and Scots and other peoples).
Stone Mtn, GA, has mixed meaning. It makes sense to want to honor Davis, Lee and Jackson. Two of the three were the best military officers ever produced in the United States. And, Davis defended the south from the economic aggression of the northern states. It's too bad that that site was also used by the <ahem> "Christian" KKK.
The US Navy has a nuclear aircraft carrier named after a southern politician who supported racial segregation: John C. Stennis. Look him up if you want to know why the USN has a strategic asset named after him.
The point is that people need to learn the history absent bias, and they'll realize that most of the "bad" and "good" events in history are actually mixed and can be either depending on one's perspective and context.
For the record, I'm glad that the Union was preserved. (Sorry JCM!) It is these United States that allow me to say what I want without fear of politically or legally saying the wrong thing...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
That is not how issues are settled in the 21st Century (or, shouldn't be -- someone should tell China!) any more, but they certainly were done that way in the early 19th Century.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
We are unable to change history. However, we can and should learn from where we have been in an effort to improve in creating a better direction for the future. What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
IMO this is a perfect example of the media twisting the facts to sensationalize their story. First of all, he's not a man by any standards. He's a young adult, if that. Secondly, he's not in custody because he's been "connected" to the killings. Everyone knows he did it in cold blood. He is the killer. Saying he's "in custody in connection" makes it sound like he's a suspect and might be released. He is lucky the police didn't shoot him upon his arrest (others have been, and for lesser crimes).
Maybe I am mincing words but this kind of reporting rubs me the wrong way.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>EVP I really enjoyed your write up. My fear is that politically motivated action … >>
I think this act by eBay is marketing-motivated not political. eBay is just trying to ride the latest wave of media to increase traffic to their site(s), IMHO. If for some reason everyone was suddenly a fan of the Confederate flag then eBay would probably make it their banner background.
FWIW, the Confederate flag - in my opinion - is a piece of history that belongs in history museums and history books and not on flagpoles, license plates, etc. We've had many flags in our nation's history, including prior versions of the national flag. I don't see why the Confederate flag should bear any more significance nor be displayed publicly.
Nazi swastika, since it has already been mentioned ... imagine if Germany decided to put swastika on their license plates? What message would that send? What would be gained?
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
As per coinkat:
"What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was."
<< <i>
For the record, I'm glad that the Union was preserved. (Sorry JCM!) It is these United States that allow me to say what I want without fear of politically or legally saying the wrong thing...
EVP >>
My ancestors fought on both sides of the Revolution and certainly both sides of the Civil War. I do not believe that now 150 years later affecting bans on flags etc from that time serves any purpose. If anything all the attention on the flag is distracting and pointless - how about focusing on the individual who committed such a heinous act? What if he was pictured with the US flag instead, would we then institute a ban on the Stars and Stripes because someone misused them?
<< <i>While I totally abhor slavery under any guise or justification, I can absolutely understand why the southern states wanted to secede from the Union. The War was minimally about slavery, and predominantly about economics.
EVP >>
EVP you make some good points but I have to disagree with you on this one. The American civil war was not minimally about slavery. While it is overly simplistic to say that civil war was only about the freedom of black slaves, or only about "states' rights" or only about sectionalism, tariffs, or any number of other causes, the institution of slavery was the number one single issue that, more than anything else, led to conflict.
I don't think the majority of soldiers on either side enlisted to fight for or against slavery. I don't think the political or military leaders thought they were fighting to preserve or destroy slavery. Nobody wanted to go to war for slavery, but the institution of slavery led to war.
As far as Lincoln's attitudes on slavery, well he was a politician and not some overly benevolent "father of his nation" as he is sometimes portrayed. But he ran on a platform with the number one issue of halting the expansion of slavery, so for his time he was about as anti-slavery as anyone in politics. During the war, he had to placate the slaveholding Northern states that stayed loyal to the Union, and could not simply set ending slavery as his political goal at the beginning of the conflict, when a Northern victory was by no means assured.
Similarly, at the risk of channeling Godwin's Law, it can be said that WWII was not about the Holocaust and racism, and in a narrow view that is true, but in a larger sense it is false.
<< <i>While this is the World Coin forum and please understand I respect that, I will add some thoughts.
We are unable to change history. However, we can and should learn from where we have been in an effort to improve in creating a better direction for the future. What is disturbing is the connection to the past has been lost. We have become a shallow society addicted to instant sound bites without an appreciation for the past. The problem is that the talking heads and the political correct crowd is using today's yardstick to measure how history should have been instead of understanding how it was. >>
It's a very difficult thing, stepping back and trying to see your ancestors and their contemporaries from anything other than a modern viewpoint. Even for highly educated and insightful people, I'm not sure it's possible to do.
I think the bigger issue is not that we measure history by a modern perspective, but rather that we use our own bias to complicate simple things, and simplify complicated things, and fail to appreciate the insight from those that do serious study in these fields.
<< <i>FWIW, the Confederate flag - in my opinion - is a piece of history that belongs in history museums and history books and not on flagpoles, license plates, etc. We've had many flags in our nation's history, including prior versions of the national flag. I don't see why the Confederate flag should bear any more significance nor be displayed publicly. >>
I agree. Have no problem with the Confederate memorabilia being sold on eBay or elsewhere. Censorship does not hide the past, but there's no good reason to fly the Confederate battle flag, a symbol of racism (like it or not), above public government buildings.
As far as the swastika, it can be found on ancient coins of many cultures. It has religious meaning for Hindus. The symbol itself is harmless, but in the right context the meaning is harmful.
Slavery, in and of itself, may not have driven the States to war, but it certainly motivated key individuals in the country's social structure.
Harriet Beecher Stowe's book, "Uncle Tom's Cabin," did not launch the war, but it would have incited those who otherwise would have remained on the sidelines.
I made it a point to read it, last year. Very powerful stuff which actually, at one point, did leave my teary eyed. Stowe did not write from some fevered imagination, but rather based her novel on the accounts of escaped slaves and others familiar with the realities down South.
DPOTD
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
A tiny bit of an apology to the fine forum folks for starting this up, yet just a small one, as I felt it is timely given that 4th of July celebrations are here. While a large number of voting citizens do not know how old the country is, the circumstances of its founding, they will love the political sound bite of flags being removed and commercial bans being applied etc - a media field day - political gain and a politically correct "feel good" coming in at once. Does anyone talk about the slain, their families, the church, the shooter, mental issues, the event itself? No. All that mattered was invoking and capitalizing current political issues (Gun control, race tensions etc.). Divide the people and conquer.
The media's consumers feed off a world of sound bites not realizing the current global instability may lead to similar circumstances that impact them here. Too much information at ones fingertips without a desire to research it, too much complacency and too little interest in the events of the past in general. I personally found this commercial/political Ebay policy as annoying along with the media's ongoing shift from journalism to propaganda. That was the purpose of the thread.
Have a great holiday and in spite of its high relevance to the once greater country we live in, do not take this thread too seriously, as it is solely my rare little rant. Enjoy the day.
The " Bars and Stars " being debated is actually the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. NOT the "Confederate" Battle Flag. A rectangular version was a Confederate Navy Jack.
The North sold the South the Slaves they held and only 3% of the population owned slaves. Those in the North , and Blacks Owned Slaves. They were expensive personal property. Later The Irish indentured servants suffered far greater indignities.
The Civil war WAS NOT FOUGHT TO FREE THE SLAVES. Slavery was Legal in the North a full two years after the North invaded the South. Freed Slave fought for the South , but were not trusted to fight by the North.
The US Flag flew over the slave ships, flew over Northern slavery, and by the Democrat formed and run KKK all the way up till today.
That killer was wearing a Golds Gym shirt,, Is Golds Gym now a racist symbol that should be banned?? Is the American Flag he was burning?? Last I checked Ebay the answer was no,, This is a nothing more that a diversion from the world problems and a reason to divide Americans by a political force with an agenda.
Anyone finding that "stars and bars" offensive needs to go read some more history IMHO.
The equivalent excuse for a Civil war today would be if the North invaded the south over it's Abortion practices.
Happy Fourth fellas.
FOR SALE Items
Of the various respondents, I'm certain that they're all good folk whose sole intention is to have an intellectual debate. I don't think anyone here likes, supports or accepts violence and racism.
Happy Fourth, guys!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Well, just Love coins, period.
A political (propaganda driven) PC culture does not get to the truth, but rather further divides societies. People's different (possibly extreme) views do not go away if suppressed. Take the flag off Ebay, it will become more popular offline.
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