Home U.S. Coin Forum

Surprising MS67

With those marks in the obv field I would have never expected this to be a 67

Link

Comments

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perfect cheek. Booming luster. Excellent strike.

    Without those marks it's a 68.
  • rkfishrkfish Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭
    Perfect cheek. Booming luster. Excellent strike.

    Agree...
    Steve

    Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
    WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
  • machoponchomachoponcho Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    It's a 67C to me.
    I have existed since the creation of this world and will exist until its end. Only my form will change. For these 80 human life years, I have the benefit of having a functioning body and consciousness. I will not waste this opportunity.
  • jerseycat101jerseycat101 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Personally, the marks are too much for a 67, regardless of the luster. Nice strike though.
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's a 67C to me. >>

    I agree that it's a "low-end" 67, especially considering the date and mintmark. Yeah, I know, the date and mm should not matter, but it really does with market grading. I don't think this one would "sticker" if submitted. Nonetheless ... it's a really nice coin with a wonderfully clean cheek.
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful cheek. But that coin will probably never leave that plastic.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,967 ✭✭✭✭
    Definitely surprising. It's at MOST a 66.888998989898988989888888888888888888 for all thosE MARKS.

    ANYONE EVER MENTION MARKS? Blind people are grading coins the feelers must've missed the MARKS!!!!!!!
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not a 67 by 1980s or 1990s standards, I think. Coins like this one graded MS65 back when I learned how to grade because any significant mark was cause to go to MS65 or lower, regardless of eye appeal. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found this same exact coin in the Heritage archives in an MS65 holder, sold for $150. But you won't, because it's an 1880-S and there are probably 25,000 of them in the archives.

    I have an 1880-S in a PCGS MS64 OGH that is nearly identical to this one, with a similar mark in a similar place, except for a swath of pretty color across the obverse. Very clean cheek. Paid $31 for it in 1996, FWIW.





  • valente151valente151 Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭
    I'd be amazed to see what several people require for a 68, or dare I say a 68+. image

    Remember, theres still 3 points of separation between a 67 and perfect 70...
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's not a 67 by 1980s or 1990s standards. >>



    I disagree with this. Standards are tougher than ever. If you crack just about any OGH slab and send them in raw today, many go down. Rattlers are better, but not all of them.

    This coin appears to have been graded in early summer or 2012. Crack it out now and send it in, no way she gets a 67.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    duplicate post
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Review Legend's Coronet 1 silver dollar auction from last week. There are plenty of examples of killer 66, 67 and even 68 specimens to suggest what is required for those grades. Check out the CC dollars as those are the easiest to see marks on and many of those are 67's and 68's. I would agree that this one looks to be a lower end 67 because of the obverse field chatter.

    Coronet 1 sale
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,083 ✭✭✭✭✭
    has a hit hidden in the hair above the ear

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 9,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a solid 67...at least a "B" version IMO. Those field grazes look quite light. Large pics make everything look worse. Pretty decent price too if you want one....though the $700 sticker on the back would be even better.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That coin just barely makes 67, IMHO, and then only by today's relaxed standards, as rhedden pointed out.
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also love the cheek and strike. The challenge (no, not absolute kill-shot on a 67 -- but a 'challenge') would be the location of the marks. The cheek is the prime focal area on Morgan grading, but the field out in front of the nose is another . . . . . and this field has enough marks that would make me very delighted if I submitted and it came back a 67.

    Not that it can't be a 67 . . . . .just that I would be very happy if I sent it in.

    Drunner
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,374 ✭✭✭✭✭
    who knows, it might have made ,ms 68 with out them field marks. just saying.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,960 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perfect cheek. Booming luster. Excellent strike.

    Without those marks it's a 68. >>

    Yep.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with the OP.

    Those field marks hit me right away.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 9,105 ✭✭✭✭✭
    roadrunner,
    In comparison to some of the Coronet1 coins, here is one that is an MS67 CAC that I feel has
    as much chatter or even more than this coin. Just my opinion.
    Jim

    image

    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>With those marks in the obv field I would have never expected this to be a 67

    Link >>

    It must have "knock you on your ass" luster!
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
    My 2 thoughts:

    1) Luster is THE most important aspect of grading. We all tend to place too much emphasis on contact marks vs luster.
    2) Gradeflation is absofrickinlutely rampant these days.
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭



    << <i>Without those marks it's a 68. >>



    Without a cleaning coins are not cleaned either! Those marks are there.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but contact marks aside, very few coins have the potential to be MS68 material. Eye appeal, strike, and most of all luster have to be all there.

    This one has a lot going for it. Dull coins without ANY visible hits are sometimes grades as low as MS62.

    The reason hits are over-emphasized on Internet grading is that luster and hairlines are difficult to evaluate from photographs, even good ones.
  • david3142david3142 Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The marks look much less severe in the picture of the slab. I would grade this coin 66+, and I could see a 67 if the marks resemble the second set of pictures more than the first. The rest of it is nearly perfect. I don't know how many commenters on this thread are Morgan collectors but I would imagine most of the ones that aren't would be surprised at the number of contact marks on many 67 and even some 68 coins.
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am on the fence on this one.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,470 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>With those marks in the obv field I would have never expected this to be a 67

    Link >>



    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,470 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's not a 67 by 1980s or 1990s standards, I think. Coins like this one graded MS65 back when I learned how to grade because any significant mark was cause to go to MS65 or lower, regardless of eye appeal. I wouldn't be surprised if someone found this same exact coin in the Heritage archives in an MS65 holder, sold for $150. But you won't, because it's an 1880-S and there are probably 25,000 of them in the archives.

    I have an 1880-S in a PCGS MS64 OGH that is nearly identical to this one, with a similar mark in a similar place, except for a swath of pretty color across the obverse. Very clean cheek. Paid $31 for it in 1996, FWIW. >>



    By ANACS standards 1979-Summer of 1984 when I was there it would probably have graded MS-64/65. We grasded the whole of each side, not just one aspect like the cheek.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • REALGATORREALGATOR Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Without that mark to the left of the nose, its a 68. But if it was in a 66 or 66+ holder, I don't think I would try for an upgrade. Close call here.
  • TookybanditTookybandit Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perfect cheek. Booming luster. Excellent strike.

    Without those marks it's a 68. >>



    image
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>By ANACS standards 1979-Summer of 1984 when I was there it would probably have graded MS-64/65. We grasded the whole of each side, not just one aspect like the cheek. >>



    I own about one hundred of Anacs old photo certificates and coins. While I have crossed some at grade and some up one grade, an equal amount have gone down. To say they are 2 or 3 grades better..........no way. Of course that is 30-35 years ago and memory changes as much as grading I think.
  • GoldCoin98GoldCoin98 Posts: 403 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Perfect cheek. Booming luster. Excellent strike.

    Without those marks it's a 68. >>

    Yep. >>



    I agree, not a low end 67


    Dozens of BST deals completed, including: kalshacon, cucamongacoin, blu62vette, natetrook, JGNumismatics, Coinshowman, DollarAfterDollar, timbuk3, jimdimmick & many more
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,107 ✭✭✭✭
    Eye Appeal is the biggest factor in grading today. Luster is the major driver of eye appeal for most coins.

    This coin has that. Yep a few hits, but it is a 67, not a 69.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • JamesMJamesM Posts: 757
    Hello everyone,

    I am the owner of Mayer Numismatics and this coin.

    I wanted to pop in and say that it is great to see all this feedback on one of my items and the photography I have put a lot of time into getting it to this point.

    Overall, the discussion tells me that the photographs are doing the job intended, they are by no means glamour shots and accurately convey the luster and marks the coin has in hand.

    Although my point of view is heavily biased due to my ownership, I feel this coin has both, above average check and luster with some marks in the obv field that limit the grade to 67. Without them, it's a plus or better as many of you pointed out. That said, it was priced with those factors in mind at $700 on our webpage (eBay is more due to the fees of selling on the site).

    As a side note, this item now has the most page views out of any of my other coins that we listed at the same time, clearly the forum is alive and well.
    --- Mayer Numismatics --- Collectors Corner --- (888) 822 - COIN ---
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,083 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Hello everyone,

    I am the owner of Mayer Numismatics and this coin.

    I wanted to pop in and say that it is great to see all this feedback on one of my items and the photography I have put a lot of time into getting it to this point.

    Overall, the discussion tells me that the photographs are doing the job intended, they are by no means glamour shots and accurately convey the luster and marks the coin has in hand.

    Although my point of view is heavily biased due to my ownership, I feel this coin has both, above average check and luster with some marks in the obv field that limit the grade to 67. Without them, it's a plus or better as many of you pointed out. That said, it was priced with those factors in mind at $700 on our webpage (eBay is more due to the fees of selling on the site).

    As a side note, this item now has the most page views out of any of my other coins that we listed at the same time, clearly the forum is alive and well. >>




    do you have a true view of this coin?

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • Its amazing how many of you guys here can look at a picture of a coin and start making some of the declarations that have been made in this thread.


    The last time I saw a MS67 without any contact marks was..... NEVER.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,470 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>By ANACS standards 1979-Summer of 1984 when I was there it would probably have graded MS-64/65. We grasded the whole of each side, not just one aspect like the cheek. >>



    I own about one hundred of Anacs old photo certificates and coins. While I have crossed some at grade and some up one grade, an equal amount have gone down. To say they are 2 or 3 grades better..........no way. Of course that is 30-35 years ago and memory changes as much as grading I think. >>



    Gradeflation is a terrible thing. We once graded the Garrett 1804 dollar, which Bowers had catalogued as an EF-40, as an EF-40. It is now in a Proof-58 holder.

    Back then we took one single large contact mark, as this coin has, more seriously than the same amount of damage scattered around in several small marks. I did say "probably" as there is a slight chance that it might have graded MS-65/65 based on overall appearance, but no higher.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Its amazing how many of you guys here can look at a picture of a coin and start making some of the declarations that have been made in this thread.

    The last time I saw a MS67 without any contact marks was..... NEVER. >>


    Granted, but the nature and location of the marks is very important. In this case, they are
    concentrated in a prime focal area and are quite distracting. The seller admits that the coin is
    priced as a low end 67 (and as far as I can tell, it's still for sale). That should tell you something
    about its rank within the grade tier.
  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a dull looking 1891 Morgan that was graded MS 61. It has even less chatter that this one.

    It's all about the luster.

    Having a Beverly Hills address might help a bit too.
    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • REGARDLESS OF THE RANK IN THE GRADING TIER, THIS WAS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT IT DESERVED A 67.. AND ALL I WAS SAYING WAS THAT IF YOU FIND A COIN THAT HAS WHAT IT TAKES TO BE A 67 WITHOUT ANY HITS/MARKS/ETC.... YOU JUST FOUND A 68 OR A 69....

    Also, the area where these hits are is not considered a prime focal area for Morgan dollars regardless of whether or not you or anyone else agrees with it.
  • this conversation was about whether it was an actual 67 or not, and not what tier in the grade of 67 it belongs..

    Also, the area where these hits/marks/chatter are, is not a prime focal area of the Morgan dollar.... whether you agree with that or not, that is how it is.

    OOPS... DIDNT MEAN TO POST IT TWICE, HAD A MINOR GLITCH AND DIDNT THINK THE FIRST ONE WENT THROUGH. SORRY BOUT THAT.
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 9,953 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I have a dull looking 1891 Morgan that was graded MS 61. It has even less chatter that this one. >>





    Balderdash!
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>roadrunner,
    In comparison to some of the Coronet1 coins, here is one that is an MS67 CAC that I feel has
    as much chatter or even more than this coin. Just my opinion.
    Jim

    image >>



    Sort of an apples to oranges comparison. The 1878 8 TF has some pretty toning on both sides which makes it difficult to see any marks. The fields look quite clean. It probably makes a difference that this coin is a POP 2 at PCGS (none at NGC). I would expect the grading services to give zero leeway in grading such a scarce coin. The 1880-s doesn't have to worry about that. The 1888 in this set was one of the few MS67's that seemed lesser than the others....though still stickered. I'm ok with the 1878 being solid for the grade.

    1888

    The 1880-s has a solid 67 reverse, a 67+ puffy white cheek, and a perfect right obv field. I think with all that you an allow that upper left obv field to skate by at MS66. That's only 10% of the entire coin. I can netting the coin to a MS67B or MS67C coin. Liberty's cheek and overall luster is the primary driver. Without that upper left obv field the coin could be a 67+ or better.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file