OK, so if I'm buying a PSA 9, how would I know if it was bumped from and 8 or 8.5? Does the PSA cert search show if a card was bumped?
Learn something new everyday. Knowing a card was bumped from a lower grade would be an important piece of info for me.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i><<I've skimmed through this thread and got to this. My kind of humor, thanks!>>
sdub,
anytime! glad ya got it. very few seem to and appreciate that you appreciated it!
<< <i>This whole argument is absurd, and the intrusion of alts just exacerbates it. However I do want to say one thing: I have seen a good portion of Sultan's collection and it is SPECTACULAR!!! >>
i remember your original question being ignored as well dan! >>
Begsu, if you like that kind of humor, TED 2 is a must see. brilliant movie.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>OK, so if I'm buying a PSA 9, how would I know if it was bumped from and 8 or 8.5? Does the PSA cert search show if a card was bumped?
Learn something new everyday. Knowing a card was bumped from a lower grade would be an important piece of info for me. >>
No, it doesn't. Bumps on review are the toughest way to get the higher grade (vs crackouts) as PSA has to agree that the previous grader undergraded the card in question. Because of that, and the scrutinization involved, you are essentially guaranteed a card that is going to be deserving of the grade assigned vs a card that may be "soft" for the grade, which happens more frequently when first submitting.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>SultanOfSwat, you're criticizing people for buying what you consider to be "weak" PSA 10s. You should probably edit your posts to say "what I consider to be weak PSA 10s" because you're not the end all of judgement on these cards.
IMO, your comments come off as pretty arrogant, saying "if some people want to buy based solely on the label, and not the actual card in the holder, they can have at it. It's just not for me".
Also, when you compared the PSA 9 to the PSA 10 Winfield you didn't post the back of the card. The back sometimes plays a great role in the grade a card receives. And, as I've said before, there are other issues that popup only when a card is in hand. Linking a scan to say conclusively that one card has better eye appeal than another is simply not telling the full story.
You also mention a bubble bursting, which is an uncertainty, and yet refuse to acknowledge the reality that cards simply disappear over time for one reason or another, and eventually there will be no more left to grade for a particular year.
I keep asking you what you consider "modern" and you keep dodging the question. For cards pre 1980/81 the above point is even more evident in today's market, as it is even more when you go back further in decades.
You say stuff like "But who wants to own one that looks like a 7 or 8, and pay 10 prices for it, when a sharp PSA 9 can be had for thousands less?". That's your opinion that they look like a 7 or 8, in general. Clearly no one wants to pay strong money for a card that's in the wrong holder but you're acting like you know better than, for example, the person who bought the Dave Winfield. You're entitled to your opinion, yes, but it's your opinion and not the final word on the grade.
You say "There is no shortage of these products out there so far, and more and more of these cards will be submitted over time." For which years? Some there are shortages of, others there aren't, but over time all will decrease due to the chaos of existence, do you agree or disagree?
You say "You can also find most of these modern gem mint rookies up for auction yearly as they are passed like hot potatoes from auction house to auction house, then Ebay, and on down the line." Again what do you consider modern?
You say "No, cards like the Henderson are overpriced." That's your opinion and not a fact. Saying a blanket statement like that insults those who have spent a lot of hard earned money on this card. I haven't bought it, but if I had I would take offense to what you said here.
I agree with you when you say that under magnification you can (sometimes) find errors in 10s, sometimes you can't. The same holds true for 9s. Just because you have a 9 that you consider sharp doesn't mean if you resubbed it it wouldn't come back an 8 or less. Having a 10 means something, even the ones you call "soft". Yes we all know that grading is subjective, mistakes do happen, but in general, there is a reason why 10s get the grade that they get, and IMO, I don't like some of how you question why people buy these 10s.
You say "What I said was that I find it silly to pay insane amounts of money for soft 10's when you can often find better cards in 9 holders." That, once again, is YOUR OPINION, these aren't "better" cards by PSA standards but by your own. I would phrase your comments more appropriately and then your point might be welcomed more softly.
You say "I don't try and fail most times to cross 9's to 10's because I do my homework and know what to submit based on what is acceptable to get in to a 10 holder." Do you have any examples you can post of this? Do you have a PSA Registry I can see so I can get a better understanding of what you consider to be strong?
You say "Of course the graders know what they are doing, but I'm not sure that you fully understand the subjectivity of the grading process. It's not a science. I just showed you two 10's with corner wear. The Winfield and Montana rookies. So what's the point? A 10 number on the holder doesn't mean that is the best conditioned card you can buy for the money. Also, a 10 does not truly mean perfect because I have never seen a 10 from any grading company that didn't have a flaw somewhere under close examination." I think everyone who posts on this forum understands the subjectivity to the grading process. And a 10 on the holder means that according to PSA, the card has a summary of values that properly put it in that holder. I don't think anyone here is saying that any 10s are perfect, but I do believe that 10s are supposed to be "the best of the best" according to PSA.
You say "Here you go again with your false accusations trying to twist the facts. I am not making fun of, or taking jabs at anyone. I am merely discussing the subjectivity of grading and why not all 10's are created equal. Others have detailed that for you, but you keep on putting your false narrative out there. Maybe this is an attempt to get the masses on your side and upset with me? I don't know, but I must say your accusing me of something that I am not doing is not appreciated." I've quoted you in many places above to point out what I'm saying and to show I'm not making any false accusations.
You say "A scan that clearly shows soft corners, chipped edges, surface marks, and other flaws, while being in a 10 holder, speaks for its self. You're defense is sounding like a denial of reality, or as if our eyes can't see what is right in front of us." As I've said before IMO a scan doesn't tell the whole story, especially when it doesn't show the back and when it's low resolution. A card in hand is the only way to truly see all the detail that may or may not merit a 10 holder.
You say "These modern graded cards are not going to go the way of the dinosaur. In my opinion, to continue to make that argument is silly. That is why I have no desire to keep addressing that issue." You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, and that it's silly to say something is "silly" without explaining why. There was a finite number of cards produced for any given year. There are only so many that are worthy of being graded, there are only so many that will survive the test of time, this is the nature of existence, and why, over time, the populations of any given year will simply decrease.
I do hope you consider what I've written here, and if not that's fine. Enjoy collecting for whatever reasons you enjoy it, and let others do the same for just like cards all of our days are numbered. >>
Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack.
<< <i>Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Of course you think they are fantastic points because you two seem to be the only ones not willing to accept the reality that a 10 on the label does not always mean you have the best possible card condition wise, due to the subjectivity of grading. You would rather spout off at me, instead of addressing the numerous issues on that Winfield that many members have agreed are problematic.
I believe most questions of your interrogation have been answered, but it seems like the same ones keep popping up just worded in different ways, so who knows what is going on with that accusation. Meanwhile, you two ignore addressing the numerous issues on that Winfield that are obvious in the scan and always try to make the conversation about something else. Gregf also ignores the question where he claims these cards are going to disappear to, leaving them like finding a dinosaur or something along those lines as time goes by.
You can keep buying the label if you want. But there is so much more to it than that. Unfortunately, I don't think you two have learned a thing from many members in this thread giving out valuable advice.
<< <i>SultanOfSwat, you're criticizing people for buying what you consider to be "weak" PSA 10s. You should probably edit your posts to say "what I consider to be weak PSA 10s" because you're not the end all of judgement on these cards.
IMO, your comments come off as pretty arrogant, saying "if some people want to buy based solely on the label, and not the actual card in the holder, they can have at it. It's just not for me".
Also, when you compared the PSA 9 to the PSA 10 Winfield you didn't post the back of the card. The back sometimes plays a great role in the grade a card receives. And, as I've said before, there are other issues that popup only when a card is in hand. Linking a scan to say conclusively that one card has better eye appeal than another is simply not telling the full story.
You also mention a bubble bursting, which is an uncertainty, and yet refuse to acknowledge the reality that cards simply disappear over time for one reason or another, and eventually there will be no more left to grade for a particular year.
I keep asking you what you consider "modern" and you keep dodging the question. For cards pre 1980/81 the above point is even more evident in today's market, as it is even more when you go back further in decades.
You say stuff like "But who wants to own one that looks like a 7 or 8, and pay 10 prices for it, when a sharp PSA 9 can be had for thousands less?". That's your opinion that they look like a 7 or 8, in general. Clearly no one wants to pay strong money for a card that's in the wrong holder but you're acting like you know better than, for example, the person who bought the Dave Winfield. You're entitled to your opinion, yes, but it's your opinion and not the final word on the grade.
You say "There is no shortage of these products out there so far, and more and more of these cards will be submitted over time." For which years? Some there are shortages of, others there aren't, but over time all will decrease due to the chaos of existence, do you agree or disagree?
You say "You can also find most of these modern gem mint rookies up for auction yearly as they are passed like hot potatoes from auction house to auction house, then Ebay, and on down the line." Again what do you consider modern?
You say "No, cards like the Henderson are overpriced." That's your opinion and not a fact. Saying a blanket statement like that insults those who have spent a lot of hard earned money on this card. I haven't bought it, but if I had I would take offense to what you said here.
I agree with you when you say that under magnification you can (sometimes) find errors in 10s, sometimes you can't. The same holds true for 9s. Just because you have a 9 that you consider sharp doesn't mean if you resubbed it it wouldn't come back an 8 or less. Having a 10 means something, even the ones you call "soft". Yes we all know that grading is subjective, mistakes do happen, but in general, there is a reason why 10s get the grade that they get, and IMO, I don't like some of how you question why people buy these 10s.
You say "What I said was that I find it silly to pay insane amounts of money for soft 10's when you can often find better cards in 9 holders." That, once again, is YOUR OPINION, these aren't "better" cards by PSA standards but by your own. I would phrase your comments more appropriately and then your point might be welcomed more softly.
You say "I don't try and fail most times to cross 9's to 10's because I do my homework and know what to submit based on what is acceptable to get in to a 10 holder." Do you have any examples you can post of this? Do you have a PSA Registry I can see so I can get a better understanding of what you consider to be strong?
You say "Of course the graders know what they are doing, but I'm not sure that you fully understand the subjectivity of the grading process. It's not a science. I just showed you two 10's with corner wear. The Winfield and Montana rookies. So what's the point? A 10 number on the holder doesn't mean that is the best conditioned card you can buy for the money. Also, a 10 does not truly mean perfect because I have never seen a 10 from any grading company that didn't have a flaw somewhere under close examination." I think everyone who posts on this forum understands the subjectivity to the grading process. And a 10 on the holder means that according to PSA, the card has a summary of values that properly put it in that holder. I don't think anyone here is saying that any 10s are perfect, but I do believe that 10s are supposed to be "the best of the best" according to PSA.
You say "Here you go again with your false accusations trying to twist the facts. I am not making fun of, or taking jabs at anyone. I am merely discussing the subjectivity of grading and why not all 10's are created equal. Others have detailed that for you, but you keep on putting your false narrative out there. Maybe this is an attempt to get the masses on your side and upset with me? I don't know, but I must say your accusing me of something that I am not doing is not appreciated." I've quoted you in many places above to point out what I'm saying and to show I'm not making any false accusations.
You say "A scan that clearly shows soft corners, chipped edges, surface marks, and other flaws, while being in a 10 holder, speaks for its self. You're defense is sounding like a denial of reality, or as if our eyes can't see what is right in front of us." As I've said before IMO a scan doesn't tell the whole story, especially when it doesn't show the back and when it's low resolution. A card in hand is the only way to truly see all the detail that may or may not merit a 10 holder.
You say "These modern graded cards are not going to go the way of the dinosaur. In my opinion, to continue to make that argument is silly. That is why I have no desire to keep addressing that issue." You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, and that it's silly to say something is "silly" without explaining why. There was a finite number of cards produced for any given year. There are only so many that are worthy of being graded, there are only so many that will survive the test of time, this is the nature of existence, and why, over time, the populations of any given year will simply decrease.
I do hope you consider what I've written here, and if not that's fine. Enjoy collecting for whatever reasons you enjoy it, and let others do the same for just like cards all of our days are numbered. >>
Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these then there's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is not participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose.
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub.
<< <i> Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these the. There's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is no participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose. >>
I am not insulting people. Even other members have told you that they didn't think I was. That is not my intent at all. I am merely trying to help inform uninformed collectors that you can buy numbers on holders thinking you got the "best of the best", or you can buy top quality cards in those holders and truly have the "best of the best". There is a big difference between the two.
Like I said, I believe I answered most of your questions, but I am not here to continue to be interrogated when you won't answer any questions yourself.
Speaking of dodging questions, you still never told us where you claim these cards are going to disappear to. Or if you can see the big print dot, black specks all over the surface on the front, chipped edges, or soft corners on that Winfield?
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well.
<< <i>The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for. >>
Is there any possible way to interpret the first sentence above where this is not "buying the label"?
ya'll both should look up the definition of insanity. or beating a dead horse.
the fact that you guys are continually trying to convince the other he's wrong, simply will not happen no matter how delicately or perfectly you say it.
it is OK that you both have your opinion.
for what it's worth, nobody's right, if everybody's wrong.
<< <i> Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these the. There's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is no participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose. >>
I am not insulting people. Even other members have told you that they didn't think I was. That is not my intent at all. I am merely trying to help inform uninformed collectors that you can buy numbers on holders thinking you got the "best of the best", or you can buy top quality cards in those holders and truly have the "best of the best". There is a big difference between the two.
Like I said, I believe I answered most of your questions, but I am not here to continue to be interrogated when you won't answer any questions yourself.
Speaking of dodging questions, you still never told us where you claim these cards are going to disappear to. Or if you can see the big print dot, black specks all over the surface on the front, chipped edges, or soft corners on that Winfield? >>
You are insulting people IMO, others agree with me and have called you out for what they consider to be your "sour grapes" and attitude. Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder, that grading is subjective and that one can bump or unbump cards.
If you please go through my post of Sunday June 28, 2015 5:22 PM and answer each question/respond to each statement (bold your responses for legibility), in a meaningful manner, that followed one of your quotes I'll consider continuing this discussion with you, otherwise I won't waste my or the rest of the forums time with you in this thread anymore. Thanks.
<< <i>You are insulting people IMO, others agree with me and have called you out for what they consider to be your "sour grapes" and attitude. Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder, that grading is subjective and that one can bump or unbump cards.
If you please go through my post of Sunday June 28, 2015 5:22 PM and answer each question/respond to each statement (bold your responses for legibility), in a meaningful manner, that followed one of your quotes I'll consider continuing this discussion with you, otherwise I won't waste my or the rest of the forums time with you in this thread anymore. Thanks. >>
Oh, please. There is only one person in this thread so far who agrees with your messed up thinking that I am insulting people when all I am doing is talking about graded cards and explaining that not all PSA 10's are created equal.
I am not going to answer anymore of your questions. It's pointless. As others have said, you and your buddy Warrior have basically admitted you do indeed have the thought process of buying the number on the holder, over the actual quality of the card in the holder, and "thinking" you got the "best of the best". That mentality is like buying a new Corvette with chips and scratches all over it and claiming your new Corvette is just as good as another new one on the same lot without damage, when in reality, both are viewed and valued quite differently by experienced Corvette collectors.
I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread?
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right?
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right? >>
LOL! Hardly. And your guessing would be wrong.
Don't you have to have a registry to share one? I believe so, and I don't have one.
I also want to add that I may get one in the future, but it's not a priority to me at this point.
With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10.
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10.
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect.
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect. >>
I don't view it this way. There is not one of these 9 sets that own a current copy and therefore the other 7 are in other collectors hands and this restriction of supply is not being driven by the registry nor is the core demand coming from it either.
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well. >>
DM and Mr. Swat, To quote you DM, you said "the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether's it to select to the card that makes him happy for his collection". Well some people select a 10 because it makes them happy for their collection don't you get it? Some people want what PSA says is the best and PSA's opinion is the only one that matters. And as discussed 10's have been great investments. There is no need to insult people who want to buy 10's. If the people buying 10's were to insult people who buy 9's who think they got a good deal, people would say the 10's are arrogant rich jerks. But you seem to think it's okay for people with their 9's can bash people who own 10's such as the winfield and get away with it? I'd like to hear your responses to these questions DM and Mr. Swat.
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right? >>
LOL! Hardly. And your guessing would be wrong.
Don't you have to have a registry to share one? I believe so, and I don't have one.
I also want to add that I may get one in the future, but it's not a priority to me at this point. >>
Mr. Swat you talk pretty big but have never given proof that you subbed a 9 to 10. What's the highest dollar value card that you subbed from a 9 to a 10?
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well. >>
DM and Mr. Swat, To quote you DM, you said "the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether's it to select to the card that makes him happy for his collection". Well some people select a 10 because it makes them happy for their collection don't you get it? Some people want what PSA says is the best and PSA's opinion is the only one that matters. And as discussed 10's have been great investments. There is no need to insult people who want to buy 10's. If the people buying 10's were to insult people who buy 9's who think they got a good deal, people would say the 10's are arrogant rich jerks. But you seem to think it's okay for people with their 9's can bash people who own 10's such as the winfield and get away with it? I'd like to hear your responses to these questions DM and Mr. Swat. >>
I don't think you get the fact that we are not against people buying 10's. Heck, I love buying quality 10's. We are simply saying blindly buying a 10 on the holder and naively believing you got the best conditioned card possible just based on a holder number is only deceiving yourself. Informed and experienced collectors in this thread have repeatedly tried to explain this to you two with no success.
Why don't you address any of the condition issues we have pointed out on that Winfield 10? Conveniently, you and your buddy gregf have totally ignored those facts that many members have continued to bring up. Why is that?
Clearly, your own words above suggest you are one of those very people who blindly go by what number is on the holder over the actual quality of the card inside the holder. I guess that is fine if you are more in love with a number on a holder than you are with the quality of the card inside of it.
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect. >>
Thank you, sir. IMO, you truly get the process that someone is clearly paying for the flip here. If they weren't, how on earth could they not see the condition flaws on that card?
IMO, anyone who pays PSA 10 money for this Winfield has money to burn, because this card aint no 10.
This card has been bought and sold 3 times recently. Buyer gets cards, reviews under magnification, sees it's an 8, gives card back to consignor to sale again.
Spoiler alert; this card will be for sale again within a year.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
Mr. swat the Winfield sold for $7300 which is a high for the same card by a lot compared to previous sales of the same one. So even if you tried to insult the card with your untrained eye some collectors will still pay big money for what you consider a weak 10. The new owner of the Winfield 10 could care less what a novice like you says. A 10 is a 10 which you don't get. Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard?
After Probstein's 10% commission on the sale, the consignor made about $150 from the previous purchase price.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>IMO, anyone who pays PSA 10 money for this Winfield has money to burn, because this card aint no 10.
This card has been bought and sold 3 times recently. Buyer gets cards, reviews under magnification, sees it's an 8, gives card back to consignor to sale again.
Spoiler alert; this card will be for sale again within a year. >>
I guess some can take the bolded as an insult, or they can use common sense and see that card is not a 10 with all of the flaws that have been detailed in this thread. I'm just glad it wasn't my money being wasted on this one. I have a feeling you will be right and we will see this one again. The hot potato game continues..
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum last month. Wouldn't be surprised if you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one!
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum this month. Heard you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one! >>
I have not been booted off of here several times. I have read this forum off and on for several years. I recently decided to join and get in on the debates. Is that a crime?
Isn't it funny that I own one 89 Griffey and it was the only one I ever pulled at my buddy's shop in 1989. It's still raw and only kept for memories sake, so knock off the lies. If you claim they aren't lies, please tell all of us who you claim told you this because I would love to know who is telling these made up stories, because I don't personally know anyone on here. Or are you the person making these stories up? What about you? It looks like you just joined, too. What's your story?
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum last month. Wouldn't be surprised if you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one! >>
I want to quote this one to prove you changed your story from claiming you heard I was an alt, to now saying you wouldn't be surprised. Now which is it? Your story is getting pretty tangled up.
This was a fun auction to follow. The consignor may have not made much in net profit terms but the fact that the market is so strong that you can flip a card through a commission sale structure like this shouldn't be looked past. In five months the card has appreciated from $6,405 to $7,300 or $895 which is 13.97% in less then five months. This equates to 36.05% annually.
If you look at the liner notes of the SMR there was a sale in 2005 for $4,000. This is an 82.5% gain during this time frame. I think this is something to look at because the rate of return comes down significantly to a more normal price appreciation rate for an asset. If you follow stocks it is not uncommon for them to consolidate for long periods and then break out and make major moves in short periods of time. I think you can make the case that many of these cards are just moving up to new levels and were due for a run.
This card doesn't fall into the category of some of the other high profile HOF cards that have made hyperbolic gains in the past year or so. You can already see cards like the Joe Montana popping up more frequently and sale prices have corrected in many cases by several thousand dollars from their highs. The lower pop star cards like this where there are stretches of time before another copy hits the market are not going to collapse due to a stock market decline. I get that $7,300 is a lot to some but if you are playing in the older card high grade market it really is not that much and it is going to take a prolonged collapse to hit enough of the players in that space to see a huge decline.
The bull market roars on and it has to be exciting to those who are seeing their cards advance.
Are people really buying cards and thinking like that above? Percentage gains and annual appreciation? It just seems a tad mercenary and vulgar, to me. Just my opinion. And all for $150? Having read these forums for many years, it does seem like the focus is increasingly on price and profit and values and what will this or that be worth (and for the most part, these are not Lotto-esque sums) and far, far less about cards and their enjoyment.
This was a fun auction to follow. The consignor may have not made much in net profit terms but the fact that the market is so strong that you can flip a card through a commission sale structure like this shouldn't be looked past. In five months the card has appreciated from $6,405 to $7,300 or $895 which is 13.97% in less then five months. This equates to 36.05% annually.
If you look at the liner notes of the SMR there was a sale in 2005 for $4,000. This is an 82.5% gain during this time frame. I think this is something to look at because the rate of return comes down significantly to a more normal price appreciation rate for an asset. If you follow stocks it is not uncommon for them to consolidate for long periods and then break out and make major moves in short periods of time. I think you can make the case that many of these cards are just moving up to new levels and were due for a run.
This card doesn't fall into the category of some of the other high profile HOF cards that have made hyperbolic gains in the past year or so. You can already see cards like the Joe Montana popping up more frequently and sale prices have corrected in many cases by several thousand dollars from their highs. The lower pop star cards like this where there are stretches of time before another copy hits the market are not going to collapse due to a stock market decline. I get that $7,300 is a lot to some but if you are playing in the older card high grade market it really is not that much and it is going to take a prolonged collapse to hit enough of the players in that space to see a huge decline.
The bull market roars on and it has to be exciting to those who are seeing their cards advance. >>
Are people really buying cards and thinking like that above? Percentage gains and annual appreciation? It just seems a tad mercenary and vulgar, to me. Just my opinion. And all for $150? Having read these forums for many years, it does seem like the focus is increasingly on price and profit and values and what will this or that be worth (and for the most part, these are not Lotto-esque sums) and far, far less about cards and their enjoyment. >>
Of course they are.
I am not as witnessed by how many of the same cards I still own but when people consistantly make fun of the people buying these cards it is worth pointing these figures out.
All I ever hear out of the Mantle crowd is what great investments they are. It is no different.
Comments
Learn something new everyday. Knowing a card was bumped from a lower grade would be an important piece of info for me.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i><<I've skimmed through this thread and got to this. My kind of humor, thanks!>>
sdub,
anytime! glad ya got it. very few seem to and appreciate that you appreciated it!
<< <i>This whole argument is absurd, and the intrusion of alts just exacerbates it. However I do want to say one thing: I have seen a good portion of Sultan's collection and it is SPECTACULAR!!! >>
i remember your original question being ignored as well dan! >>
Begsu, if you like that kind of humor, TED 2 is a must see. brilliant movie.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>OK, so if I'm buying a PSA 9, how would I know if it was bumped from and 8 or 8.5? Does the PSA cert search show if a card was bumped?
Learn something new everyday. Knowing a card was bumped from a lower grade would be an important piece of info for me. >>
No, it doesn't. Bumps on review are the toughest way to get the higher grade (vs crackouts) as PSA has to agree that the previous grader undergraded the card in question. Because of that, and the scrutinization involved, you are essentially guaranteed a card that is going to be deserving of the grade assigned vs a card that may be "soft" for the grade, which happens more frequently when first submitting.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>SultanOfSwat, you're criticizing people for buying what you consider to be "weak" PSA 10s. You should probably edit your posts to say "what I consider to be weak PSA 10s" because you're not the end all of judgement on these cards.
IMO, your comments come off as pretty arrogant, saying "if some people want to buy based solely on the label, and not the actual card in the holder, they can have at it. It's just not for me".
Also, when you compared the PSA 9 to the PSA 10 Winfield you didn't post the back of the card. The back sometimes plays a great role in the grade a card receives. And, as I've said before, there are other issues that popup only when a card is in hand. Linking a scan to say conclusively that one card has better eye appeal than another is simply not telling the full story.
You also mention a bubble bursting, which is an uncertainty, and yet refuse to acknowledge the reality that cards simply disappear over time for one reason or another, and eventually there will be no more left to grade for a particular year.
I keep asking you what you consider "modern" and you keep dodging the question. For cards pre 1980/81 the above point is even more evident in today's market, as it is even more when you go back further in decades.
You say stuff like "But who wants to own one that looks like a 7 or 8, and pay 10 prices for it, when a sharp PSA 9 can be had for thousands less?". That's your opinion that they look like a 7 or 8, in general. Clearly no one wants to pay strong money for a card that's in the wrong holder but you're acting like you know better than, for example, the person who bought the Dave Winfield. You're entitled to your opinion, yes, but it's your opinion and not the final word on the grade.
You say "There is no shortage of these products out there so far, and more and more of these cards will be submitted over time." For which years? Some there are shortages of, others there aren't, but over time all will decrease due to the chaos of existence, do you agree or disagree?
You say "You can also find most of these modern gem mint rookies up for auction yearly as they are passed like hot potatoes from auction house to auction house, then Ebay, and on down the line." Again what do you consider modern?
You say "No, cards like the Henderson are overpriced." That's your opinion and not a fact. Saying a blanket statement like that insults those who have spent a lot of hard earned money on this card. I haven't bought it, but if I had I would take offense to what you said here.
I agree with you when you say that under magnification you can (sometimes) find errors in 10s, sometimes you can't. The same holds true for 9s. Just because you have a 9 that you consider sharp doesn't mean if you resubbed it it wouldn't come back an 8 or less. Having a 10 means something, even the ones you call "soft". Yes we all know that grading is subjective, mistakes do happen, but in general, there is a reason why 10s get the grade that they get, and IMO, I don't like some of how you question why people buy these 10s.
You say "What I said was that I find it silly to pay insane amounts of money for soft 10's when you can often find better cards in 9 holders." That, once again, is YOUR OPINION, these aren't "better" cards by PSA standards but by your own. I would phrase your comments more appropriately and then your point might be welcomed more softly.
You say "I don't try and fail most times to cross 9's to 10's because I do my homework and know what to submit based on what is acceptable to get in to a 10 holder." Do you have any examples you can post of this? Do you have a PSA Registry I can see so I can get a better understanding of what you consider to be strong?
You say "Of course the graders know what they are doing, but I'm not sure that you fully understand the subjectivity of the grading process. It's not a science. I just showed you two 10's with corner wear. The Winfield and Montana rookies. So what's the point? A 10 number on the holder doesn't mean that is the best conditioned card you can buy for the money. Also, a 10 does not truly mean perfect because I have never seen a 10 from any grading company that didn't have a flaw somewhere under close examination." I think everyone who posts on this forum understands the subjectivity to the grading process. And a 10 on the holder means that according to PSA, the card has a summary of values that properly put it in that holder. I don't think anyone here is saying that any 10s are perfect, but I do believe that 10s are supposed to be "the best of the best" according to PSA.
You say "Here you go again with your false accusations trying to twist the facts. I am not making fun of, or taking jabs at anyone. I am merely discussing the subjectivity of grading and why not all 10's are created equal. Others have detailed that for you, but you keep on putting your false narrative out there. Maybe this is an attempt to get the masses on your side and upset with me? I don't know, but I must say your accusing me of something that I am not doing is not appreciated." I've quoted you in many places above to point out what I'm saying and to show I'm not making any false accusations.
You say "A scan that clearly shows soft corners, chipped edges, surface marks, and other flaws, while being in a 10 holder, speaks for its self. You're defense is sounding like a denial of reality, or as if our eyes can't see what is right in front of us." As I've said before IMO a scan doesn't tell the whole story, especially when it doesn't show the back and when it's low resolution. A card in hand is the only way to truly see all the detail that may or may not merit a 10 holder.
You say "These modern graded cards are not going to go the way of the dinosaur. In my opinion, to continue to make that argument is silly. That is why I have no desire to keep addressing that issue." You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, and that it's silly to say something is "silly" without explaining why. There was a finite number of cards produced for any given year. There are only so many that are worthy of being graded, there are only so many that will survive the test of time, this is the nature of existence, and why, over time, the populations of any given year will simply decrease.
I do hope you consider what I've written here, and if not that's fine. Enjoy collecting for whatever reasons you enjoy it, and let others do the same for just like cards all of our days are numbered. >>
Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack.
<< <i>Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Of course you think they are fantastic points because you two seem to be the only ones not willing to accept the reality that a 10 on the label does not always mean you have the best possible card condition wise, due to the subjectivity of grading. You would rather spout off at me, instead of addressing the numerous issues on that Winfield that many members have agreed are problematic.
I believe most questions of your interrogation have been answered, but it seems like the same ones keep popping up just worded in different ways, so who knows what is going on with that accusation. Meanwhile, you two ignore addressing the numerous issues on that Winfield that are obvious in the scan and always try to make the conversation about something else. Gregf also ignores the question where he claims these cards are going to disappear to, leaving them like finding a dinosaur or something along those lines as time goes by.
You can keep buying the label if you want. But there is so much more to it than that. Unfortunately, I don't think you two have learned a thing from many members in this thread giving out valuable advice.
<< <i>
<< <i>SultanOfSwat, you're criticizing people for buying what you consider to be "weak" PSA 10s. You should probably edit your posts to say "what I consider to be weak PSA 10s" because you're not the end all of judgement on these cards.
IMO, your comments come off as pretty arrogant, saying "if some people want to buy based solely on the label, and not the actual card in the holder, they can have at it. It's just not for me".
Also, when you compared the PSA 9 to the PSA 10 Winfield you didn't post the back of the card. The back sometimes plays a great role in the grade a card receives. And, as I've said before, there are other issues that popup only when a card is in hand. Linking a scan to say conclusively that one card has better eye appeal than another is simply not telling the full story.
You also mention a bubble bursting, which is an uncertainty, and yet refuse to acknowledge the reality that cards simply disappear over time for one reason or another, and eventually there will be no more left to grade for a particular year.
I keep asking you what you consider "modern" and you keep dodging the question. For cards pre 1980/81 the above point is even more evident in today's market, as it is even more when you go back further in decades.
You say stuff like "But who wants to own one that looks like a 7 or 8, and pay 10 prices for it, when a sharp PSA 9 can be had for thousands less?". That's your opinion that they look like a 7 or 8, in general. Clearly no one wants to pay strong money for a card that's in the wrong holder but you're acting like you know better than, for example, the person who bought the Dave Winfield. You're entitled to your opinion, yes, but it's your opinion and not the final word on the grade.
You say "There is no shortage of these products out there so far, and more and more of these cards will be submitted over time." For which years? Some there are shortages of, others there aren't, but over time all will decrease due to the chaos of existence, do you agree or disagree?
You say "You can also find most of these modern gem mint rookies up for auction yearly as they are passed like hot potatoes from auction house to auction house, then Ebay, and on down the line." Again what do you consider modern?
You say "No, cards like the Henderson are overpriced." That's your opinion and not a fact. Saying a blanket statement like that insults those who have spent a lot of hard earned money on this card. I haven't bought it, but if I had I would take offense to what you said here.
I agree with you when you say that under magnification you can (sometimes) find errors in 10s, sometimes you can't. The same holds true for 9s. Just because you have a 9 that you consider sharp doesn't mean if you resubbed it it wouldn't come back an 8 or less. Having a 10 means something, even the ones you call "soft". Yes we all know that grading is subjective, mistakes do happen, but in general, there is a reason why 10s get the grade that they get, and IMO, I don't like some of how you question why people buy these 10s.
You say "What I said was that I find it silly to pay insane amounts of money for soft 10's when you can often find better cards in 9 holders." That, once again, is YOUR OPINION, these aren't "better" cards by PSA standards but by your own. I would phrase your comments more appropriately and then your point might be welcomed more softly.
You say "I don't try and fail most times to cross 9's to 10's because I do my homework and know what to submit based on what is acceptable to get in to a 10 holder." Do you have any examples you can post of this? Do you have a PSA Registry I can see so I can get a better understanding of what you consider to be strong?
You say "Of course the graders know what they are doing, but I'm not sure that you fully understand the subjectivity of the grading process. It's not a science. I just showed you two 10's with corner wear. The Winfield and Montana rookies. So what's the point? A 10 number on the holder doesn't mean that is the best conditioned card you can buy for the money. Also, a 10 does not truly mean perfect because I have never seen a 10 from any grading company that didn't have a flaw somewhere under close examination." I think everyone who posts on this forum understands the subjectivity to the grading process. And a 10 on the holder means that according to PSA, the card has a summary of values that properly put it in that holder. I don't think anyone here is saying that any 10s are perfect, but I do believe that 10s are supposed to be "the best of the best" according to PSA.
You say "Here you go again with your false accusations trying to twist the facts. I am not making fun of, or taking jabs at anyone. I am merely discussing the subjectivity of grading and why not all 10's are created equal. Others have detailed that for you, but you keep on putting your false narrative out there. Maybe this is an attempt to get the masses on your side and upset with me? I don't know, but I must say your accusing me of something that I am not doing is not appreciated." I've quoted you in many places above to point out what I'm saying and to show I'm not making any false accusations.
You say "A scan that clearly shows soft corners, chipped edges, surface marks, and other flaws, while being in a 10 holder, speaks for its self. You're defense is sounding like a denial of reality, or as if our eyes can't see what is right in front of us." As I've said before IMO a scan doesn't tell the whole story, especially when it doesn't show the back and when it's low resolution. A card in hand is the only way to truly see all the detail that may or may not merit a 10 holder.
You say "These modern graded cards are not going to go the way of the dinosaur. In my opinion, to continue to make that argument is silly. That is why I have no desire to keep addressing that issue." You are entitled to your opinion. I think you are wrong, and that it's silly to say something is "silly" without explaining why. There was a finite number of cards produced for any given year. There are only so many that are worthy of being graded, there are only so many that will survive the test of time, this is the nature of existence, and why, over time, the populations of any given year will simply decrease.
I do hope you consider what I've written here, and if not that's fine. Enjoy collecting for whatever reasons you enjoy it, and let others do the same for just like cards all of our days are numbered. >>
Fantastic points gregf your questions seem to be continually avoided by Mr. Swat. The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these then there's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is not participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose.
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub.
<< <i>
Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these the. There's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is no participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose. >>
I am not insulting people. Even other members have told you that they didn't think I was. That is not my intent at all. I am merely trying to help inform uninformed collectors that you can buy numbers on holders thinking you got the "best of the best", or you can buy top quality cards in those holders and truly have the "best of the best". There is a big difference between the two.
Like I said, I believe I answered most of your questions, but I am not here to continue to be interrogated when you won't answer any questions yourself.
Speaking of dodging questions, you still never told us where you claim these cards are going to disappear to. Or if you can see the big print dot, black specks all over the surface on the front, chipped edges, or soft corners on that Winfield?
<< <i> >>
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for. >>
Is there any possible way to interpret the first sentence above where this is not "buying the label"?
the fact that you guys are continually trying to convince the other he's wrong, simply will not happen no matter how delicately or perfectly you say it.
it is OK that you both have your opinion.
for what it's worth, nobody's right, if everybody's wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Thank's Warriors8. I quoted exactly what he said and then asked questions related to each quote. Since those are his words why can't he answer directly to each point?
I think you made valid points also Warriors8 and I agree that "sour grapes" does come in to play when collectors try to insult others for collecting PSA 10s, as well as insult them saying we are just "buying the label". That's rude and uncalled for.
So be it. I've made my points loud and clear, I've quoted the appropriate comments and asked questions related to each comment. If he doesn't want to address these the. There's no use continuing the conversation or debate as he is no participating in a productive fashion.
Thanks again Warriors8 and for all the rest who enjoy collecting the "best of the best". This is a great hobby of ours and I enjoy watching everyone enjoy it in whatever way they choose. >>
I am not insulting people. Even other members have told you that they didn't think I was. That is not my intent at all. I am merely trying to help inform uninformed collectors that you can buy numbers on holders thinking you got the "best of the best", or you can buy top quality cards in those holders and truly have the "best of the best". There is a big difference between the two.
Like I said, I believe I answered most of your questions, but I am not here to continue to be interrogated when you won't answer any questions yourself.
Speaking of dodging questions, you still never told us where you claim these cards are going to disappear to. Or if you can see the big print dot, black specks all over the surface on the front, chipped edges, or soft corners on that Winfield? >>
You are insulting people IMO, others agree with me and have called you out for what they consider to be your "sour grapes" and attitude. Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder, that grading is subjective and that one can bump or unbump cards.
If you please go through my post of Sunday June 28, 2015 5:22 PM and answer each question/respond to each statement (bold your responses for legibility), in a meaningful manner, that followed one of your quotes I'll consider continuing this discussion with you, otherwise I won't waste my or the rest of the forums time with you in this thread anymore. Thanks.
<< <i>Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder >>
Thats not true. And I quote "The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack."
That doesn't sound like "buy the card, not the holder" to me.
<< <i>You are insulting people IMO, others agree with me and have called you out for what they consider to be your "sour grapes" and attitude. Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder, that grading is subjective and that one can bump or unbump cards.
If you please go through my post of Sunday June 28, 2015 5:22 PM and answer each question/respond to each statement (bold your responses for legibility), in a meaningful manner, that followed one of your quotes I'll consider continuing this discussion with you, otherwise I won't waste my or the rest of the forums time with you in this thread anymore. Thanks. >>
Oh, please. There is only one person in this thread so far who agrees with your messed up thinking that I am insulting people when all I am doing is talking about graded cards and explaining that not all PSA 10's are created equal.
I am not going to answer anymore of your questions. It's pointless. As others have said, you and your buddy Warrior have basically admitted you do indeed have the thought process of buying the number on the holder, over the actual quality of the card in the holder, and "thinking" you got the "best of the best". That mentality is like buying a new Corvette with chips and scratches all over it and claiming your new Corvette is just as good as another new one on the same lot without damage, when in reality, both are viewed and valued quite differently by experienced Corvette collectors.
Just my 2 cents.
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread?
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, everyone here knows that they should buy the card and not the holder >>
Thats not true. And I quote "The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack."
That doesn't sound like "buy the card, not the holder" to me. >>
It's doesn't to me either.
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right? >>
LOL! Hardly. And your guessing would be wrong.
Don't you have to have a registry to share one? I believe so, and I don't have one.
I also want to add that I may get one in the future, but it's not a priority to me at this point.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10.
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10.
<< <i>
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect.
If you've been banned and need one - well, that's the internet.
If you're just hiding who you are, I probably didn't care in the first place.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect. >>
I don't view it this way. There is not one of these 9 sets that own a current copy and therefore the other 7 are in other collectors hands and this restriction of supply is not being driven by the registry nor is the core demand coming from it either.
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well. >>
DM and Mr. Swat,
To quote you DM, you said "the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether's it to select to the card that makes him happy for his collection".
Well some people select a 10 because it makes them happy for their collection don't you get it? Some people want what PSA says is the best and PSA's opinion is the only one that matters. And as discussed 10's have been great investments. There is no need to insult people who want to buy 10's.
If the people buying 10's were to insult people who buy 9's who think they got a good deal, people would say the 10's are arrogant rich jerks.
But you seem to think it's okay for people with their 9's can bash people who own 10's such as the winfield and get away with it?
I'd like to hear your responses to these questions DM and Mr. Swat.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been reading this seesaw thread from the start and I've got to say I agree with most of what greg is saying. Honestly Swat I think you just need to stop and let this one go as it appears that greg doesn't want to discuss this with you anymore since you won't respond to what he's asking.
Just my 2 cents. >>
LOL! Sure.. I guess you failed to see he won't answer any questions, yet, I have answered quite a few of his. Is this one of those alternate accounts like others have said are being used to infiltrate this thread? >>
No. Is yours? I'm guessing it is, and that's the reason you didn't share your PSA registry. Am I right? >>
LOL! Hardly. And your guessing would be wrong.
Don't you have to have a registry to share one? I believe so, and I don't have one.
I also want to add that I may get one in the future, but it's not a priority to me at this point. >>
Mr. Swat you talk pretty big but have never given proof that you subbed a 9 to 10.
What's the highest dollar value card that you subbed from a 9 to a 10?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> >>
The only opinion that matters of what is a 10 is PSA's. Mr. Swat doesn't realize that his opinion of a 10 means jack. >>
Wait-- so the opinion of the collector is meaningless, and therefore we should just never look at the card and override some random grader's opinion, and blindly buy stickers? In other words, "Buy the label, not the card?" It's the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether it's to select the card that makes him happy for his collection, or to select a 9 that later becomes a 10 upon review or resub. >>
That's basically how I'm understanding his argument as well. >>
DM and Mr. Swat,
To quote you DM, you said "the collector's eye and opinion that matters most, above all, whether's it to select to the card that makes him happy for his collection".
Well some people select a 10 because it makes them happy for their collection don't you get it? Some people want what PSA says is the best and PSA's opinion is the only one that matters. And as discussed 10's have been great investments. There is no need to insult people who want to buy 10's.
If the people buying 10's were to insult people who buy 9's who think they got a good deal, people would say the 10's are arrogant rich jerks.
But you seem to think it's okay for people with their 9's can bash people who own 10's such as the winfield and get away with it?
I'd like to hear your responses to these questions DM and Mr. Swat. >>
I don't think you get the fact that we are not against people buying 10's. Heck, I love buying quality 10's. We are simply saying blindly buying a 10 on the holder and naively believing you got the best conditioned card possible just based on a holder number is only deceiving yourself. Informed and experienced collectors in this thread have repeatedly tried to explain this to you two with no success.
Why don't you address any of the condition issues we have pointed out on that Winfield 10? Conveniently, you and your buddy gregf have totally ignored those facts that many members have continued to bring up. Why is that?
Clearly, your own words above suggest you are one of those very people who blindly go by what number is on the holder over the actual quality of the card inside the holder. I guess that is fine if you are more in love with a number on a holder than you are with the quality of the card inside of it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>With 19 bidders and a current bid of $5,600 I am very interested to see where this card closes.
No matter what anyone thinks of the card in the holder. It is a true testament to the liquidity that exists in the current market for high grade low pop star cards. The current population is 8.
There have been 4,398 examples submitted to PSA.
Of the top ten sets registered 9 allow for their cards to be viewed. None own a 10. >>
Agreed Dpeck. I'm sure we'll see some strong snipes fire off in the last 15 seconds or so. If I had to guess I'd say $8,150 as the winning price for this PSA 10. >>
So in other words, if it weren't for the registry and someone simply paying for the flip and not the card this card would probably be sitting at maybe $1000 right now instead of $5600. So everything Sultan has been saying is correct and the new alt is incorrect. >>
Thank you, sir. IMO, you truly get the process that someone is clearly paying for the flip here. If they weren't, how on earth could they not see the condition flaws on that card?
This card has been bought and sold 3 times recently. Buyer gets cards, reviews under magnification, sees it's an 8, gives card back to consignor to sale again.
Spoiler alert; this card will be for sale again within a year.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
The new owner of the Winfield 10 could care less what a novice like you says. A 10 is a 10 which you don't get.
Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>IMO, anyone who pays PSA 10 money for this Winfield has money to burn, because this card aint no 10.
This card has been bought and sold 3 times recently. Buyer gets cards, reviews under magnification, sees it's an 8, gives card back to consignor to sale again.
Spoiler alert; this card will be for sale again within a year. >>
I guess some can take the bolded as an insult, or they can use common sense and see that card is not a 10 with all of the flaws that have been detailed in this thread. I'm just glad it wasn't my money being wasted on this one. I have a feeling you will be right and we will see this one again. The hot potato game continues..
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character.
<< <i>
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum last month. Wouldn't be surprised if you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum this month. Heard you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one! >>
I have not been booted off of here several times. I have read this forum off and on for several years. I recently decided to join and get in on the debates. Is that a crime?
Isn't it funny that I own one 89 Griffey and it was the only one I ever pulled at my buddy's shop in 1989. It's still raw and only kept for memories sake, so knock off the lies. If you claim they aren't lies, please tell all of us who you claim told you this because I would love to know who is telling these made up stories, because I don't personally know anyone on here. Or are you the person making these stories up? What about you? It looks like you just joined, too. What's your story?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Was your best card of a bump from 9 to a 10 a ken Griffey jr rookie Psa 10 I heard? >>
If you will make up something this small, what else will you lie about? It speaks volumes about your character. >>
You've been collecting since the 70's but just joined this forum last month. Wouldn't be surprised if you are an alt who's been booted off a few times. Congrats again on your 89 upper deck Griffey bump that's a huge one! >>
I want to quote this one to prove you changed your story from claiming you heard I was an alt, to now saying you wouldn't be surprised. Now which is it? Your story is getting pretty tangled up.
This was a fun auction to follow. The consignor may have not made much in net profit terms but the fact that the market is so strong that you can flip a card through a commission sale structure like this shouldn't be looked past. In five months the card has appreciated from $6,405 to $7,300 or $895 which is 13.97% in less then five months. This equates to 36.05% annually.
If you look at the liner notes of the SMR there was a sale in 2005 for $4,000. This is an 82.5% gain during this time frame. I think this is something to look at because the rate of return comes down significantly to a more normal price appreciation rate for an asset. If you follow stocks it is not uncommon for them to consolidate for long periods and then break out and make major moves in short periods of time. I think you can make the case that many of these cards are just moving up to new levels and were due for a run.
This card doesn't fall into the category of some of the other high profile HOF cards that have made hyperbolic gains in the past year or so. You can already see cards like the Joe Montana popping up more frequently and sale prices have corrected in many cases by several thousand dollars from their highs. The lower pop star cards like this where there are stretches of time before another copy hits the market are not going to collapse due to a stock market decline. I get that $7,300 is a lot to some but if you are playing in the older card high grade market it really is not that much and it is going to take a prolonged collapse to hit enough of the players in that space to see a huge decline.
The bull market roars on and it has to be exciting to those who are seeing their cards advance.
<< <i>but just joined this forum last month. >>
This is awesome! Hey, kettle - you're black!
<< <i>
<< <i>PSA for the win.
This was a fun auction to follow. The consignor may have not made much in net profit terms but the fact that the market is so strong that you can flip a card through a commission sale structure like this shouldn't be looked past. In five months the card has appreciated from $6,405 to $7,300 or $895 which is 13.97% in less then five months. This equates to 36.05% annually.
If you look at the liner notes of the SMR there was a sale in 2005 for $4,000. This is an 82.5% gain during this time frame. I think this is something to look at because the rate of return comes down significantly to a more normal price appreciation rate for an asset. If you follow stocks it is not uncommon for them to consolidate for long periods and then break out and make major moves in short periods of time. I think you can make the case that many of these cards are just moving up to new levels and were due for a run.
This card doesn't fall into the category of some of the other high profile HOF cards that have made hyperbolic gains in the past year or so. You can already see cards like the Joe Montana popping up more frequently and sale prices have corrected in many cases by several thousand dollars from their highs. The lower pop star cards like this where there are stretches of time before another copy hits the market are not going to collapse due to a stock market decline. I get that $7,300 is a lot to some but if you are playing in the older card high grade market it really is not that much and it is going to take a prolonged collapse to hit enough of the players in that space to see a huge decline.
The bull market roars on and it has to be exciting to those who are seeing their cards advance. >>
Are people really buying cards and thinking like that above? Percentage gains and annual appreciation? It just seems a tad mercenary and vulgar, to me. Just my opinion. And all for $150? Having read these forums for many years, it does seem like the focus is increasingly on price and profit and values and what will this or that be worth (and for the most part, these are not Lotto-esque sums) and far, far less about cards and their enjoyment. >>
Of course they are.
I am not as witnessed by how many of the same cards I still own but when people consistantly make fun of the people buying these cards it is worth pointing these figures out.
All I ever hear out of the Mantle crowd is what great investments they are. It is no different.