Those new numbers of Total Pop and Total Pop Higher make no sense to me

WingedLiberty1957

I have a Lincoln Cent Registry Set, which can be viewed at the following link ...
My Lincoln Cent Registry Set


The two new added statistics are shown under 3. and 4. below ...

1. PCGS No. Pop
2. PCGS No. Pop Higher
3. Total Pop
4. Total Pop Higher

The numbers I am seeing under 3 and 4 dont make any sense to me

Look at the 1909 VDB row ...

Total Pop is 1,231
Total Pop higher is over 14,528

WHAT ? How can the total pop higher be 10x bigger than the total pop.

Shouldn't the "TOTAL POPULATION" should be a total domain that includes everything ...
then the "TOTAL POPULATION HIGHER" should be a subset of that number (i.e. a number that is smaller than the TOTAL number)


Then compare these two numbers ...

No Pop is 1,229
Total Pop is 1,231

What's the difference (where did the added 2 coins come from?)


Here is a screen capture ...

yosclimber

This was discussed about a week ago, but the thread was deleted.
1. PCGS No. Pop is the population for the PCGS coin number of your coin.
3. Total Pop is the population for all PCGS coin numbers which are valid for this row in the registry set.
(For example, Total Pop might include both circulation strike and proof coin numbers).

Pop Higher use the same definitions as above.

It is a new feature and there may be a few strange numbers in the Total Pop and Total Pop Higher columns until it is more fully tested.

WingedLiberty1957

<< <i>This was discussed about a week ago, but the thread was deleted.
1. PCGS No. Pop is the population for the PCGS coin number of your coin.
3. Total Pop is the population for all PCGS coin numbers which are valid for this row in the registry set.
(For example, Total Pop might include both circulation strike and proof coin numbers).

Pop Higher use the same definitions as above.

It is a new feature and there may be a few strange numbers in the Total Pop and Total Pop Higher columns until it is more fully tested. >>




Ahh ok ... still testing
Thanks for the heads up.

cointime

Some additional info on the Registry Forum

WingedLiberty1957

1909 VDB row ...

TOTAL POP = 1231
TOTAL POP HIGHER = 14,528

????

illini420

The numbers look fine to me.

The PCGS No. Higher means the number of coins w/ that PCGS No. Higher. So for your 1909 VDB, it's the number of coins w/ the RB designation that grade higher.

The Total Pop Higher would include those same coins, but would also include the number of BN and RD coins that grade higher. Since there are tons of RD examples that grade higher than 65RB, that is what that number is so much higher.

Also, the Total Pop includes varieties, so that is why the Total Pop in your grade can be slightly different than the total pop for the PCGS Coin No.

WingedLiberty1957

Can anybody explain in very plain and simple English the exact meanings of the numbers shown in those 4 columns?

1. PCGS No. Pop
2. PCGS No. Pop Higher
3. Total Pop
4. Total Pop Higher

I still dont get it.

The ones I am really confused about are 3. and 4. (the two new stats)

Did PCGS have a press release or is there an online guide or document that explains this?

This is a case where the old simpler (intuitive) way was much better and less confusing.

The old system was great. Everybody knew what a Population 1 / 0 coin meant

Now there is a a new system where its a population 1 / 0 / 5 / 14000 coin ?

WingedLiberty1957

Here is the current POPs screen captured from the PCGS Online Guide



So for a 1909 VDB MS65RB coin

These are the numbers listed in my Registry Set table:

1. PCGS No Pop = 1,229
2. PCGS No Pop Higher = 189
3. Total Pop = 1,231
4. Total Pop Higher = 14,528

illini420

Really hard to respond when you keep editing every post you've made in the thread.

Even your first two numbers are not matching the pop report data that shows in the screen shot you posted, but they're close... the 1909 VDB is a super common coin and they're getting graded every day, so one set of numbers may just be behind the other a bit... plus the numbers you show in that screen shot include coins under other coin numbers (you need to expand w/ the little plus sign at the left to see the breakdowns).

But for the new numbers in the registry sets, what I said in my previous post (still unedited) seems to come pretty close. The total pop higher is about equal to the number of RB coins that are better than yours plus all of the coins that grade RD as it seems that PCGS is saying that any coin grading RD is better than an RB.

Not sure why they added this to the Registry, but the info doesn't hurt I guess. For example, your MS65BN 1909 DDO might be a pop 1 in that coin number, but there are certainly better 1909 DDOs out there than yours, so calling it a pop 1 with none higher would be a bit misleading.

Might be easier to get exact numbers to break down and reconcile if you chose a lower pop coin w/o so many graded like your 1910 or 1911

WingedLiberty1957

<< <i>Here is the current POPs screen captured from the PCGS Online Guide



So for a 1909 VDB MS65RB coin

These are the numbers listed in my Registry Set table:

1. PCGS No Pop = 1,229
2. PCGS No Pop Higher = 189
3. Total Pop = 1,231
4. Total Pop Higher = 14,528 >>




OK so just based on this one coin -- and trying to reconcile these two data sources ...

This appears to be what each category means:

1. PCGS No. Pop = Number of coins at that exact grade (MS65RB, in this case). The fact that the PCGS Pop Table and the Registry Table show different numbers (1,229 vs 1,242) is a bit odd, since I would think they would be reading from the same internal database. Unless PCGS actually has 2 separate population data bases they maintain -- one attached to the PCGS Population Tables and one attached to the PCGS registry -- and one generally lags the other by a few weeks or months?

2. PCGS No PoP Higher = Number of coins graded higher (including + coins in that same grade) in that same color class (RB in this case). So once again the Pop Table and the Registry Table show slightly different numbers (189 vs 190). They must be pulling from two separately maintained databases that are not synced very often.

3. Total Pop = Number of coins graded in that exact grade (65) and color class (RB) -- but this number includes the plus (+) coins. So it's a total of the MS65RB and MS65+RB coins ... which is why it's 2 higher (since there are 2 MS65+RB coins). Once again the number vary a bit between the PCGS Registry Table and the PCGS Population Table (1231 vs 1246)

4. Total Pop Higher = Number of coins rated higher where BN is the lowest, then RB, then RD. So if you have a top pop BN coin -- PCGS would add up the total number of RB coins (any grade, even low MS60 grades) and the total number of RD coins (any grade once again) and show how many more coins there are that are either graded higher in your color class ... or any grade in a higher rated color classs ( BN < RB < RD )

So the confusion is coming in for me (I think) with ill defined (or chosen) labels


Maybe better labels would be:

1. Pop Total: Exact Grade & Exact Color

2. Pop Higher: Higher Grade & Exact Color

3. Pop Total: Exact Grade (incl. +) & Exact Color

4. Pop Higher: Higher Grade and/or Higher Color


I think that category 3 is sort of useless and doesn't really add any important new info.
Just leads to confusion. Since that information is already picked up in 2. above

I think that category 4 is also kind of an odd total to be calculating and posting.
Esp since some of us are all about toned copper and avoid RD coins completely.
If I had a top pop MS67 BN copper coin, I could care less if there is an MS60 RD coin out there.
I really don't view that as something higher, that I would have any desire of acquiring.

I still think this was a better system when just the numbers for 1. and 2. were posted in the registry.

illini420

Category 3 may not make much sense to you in your particular example... but take a look at my 1909 set linked in my signature line. I have a 1909-S/S half in my set instead of the regular 1909-S. It's a pop 1/1 for the variety. But when you factor in all of the non-variety coins, it's certainly not a pop 1/1.

WingedLiberty1957

Thanks Illini !

Ahh so there is a Variety aspect to this that I am missing as well

So the 1909 VDB DDO's would get merged into the numbers with the 1909 VDB's

cointime

I thought I answered that in the link I posted above......

DrPete, My thoughts on the 2 extra columns would be to show the separate pops for the parent coin# pop. Just in case you add a variety with a pop of 1, the system would look at the parent pop and not award the 2 point advantage.

messydesk

Memo to PCGS: A tooltip might be helpful where definitions might be desired.

WingedLiberty1957

Well shoot. I thought I had this nailed down. Now I'm no so sure.

I have a 2nd Registry Set that includes both Circulation Strike and Proof Coins -- and in that Registry Set -- I get a DIFFERENT set of numbers in those 4 columns for the 1909 VDB Circulation Strike (which is listed at the top of the registry. (Note that the 1909 VDB Proof coin row (entry) is about 2/3'rds of the way further down the page.

Here is a direct link to the 2nd Registry Set ...
2nd Registry Set (Circulation Strikes and Proofs)

The difference in the first number might just be there were 2 more 1909 VDB's made in the past 2 days, that's fine. But the numbers jumped so much for 3. and 4. that I am not sure what they mean now.

These are the numbers listed in my Registry Set table in the OP (screen captured on 6/25/15):
1. PCGS No Pop = 1,229
2. PCGS No Pop Higher = 189
3. Total Pop = 1,231
4. Total Pop Higher = 14,528

These are the numbers listed in my 2nd Registry Set table shown below (screen captured on 6/27/15 at 5am):
1. PCGS No Pop = 1,231
2. PCGS No Pop Higher = 189
3. Total Pop = 6,972 (+5700 different from above)
4. Total Pop Higher = 14,793 (+250 different from above)

Now I am more confused than ever.

Here is a screen capture of my 2nd Registry Set Table:

LindeDad

Before you get too wrapped around the flag pole, remember all those number's are dependent on how many were crack-outs of that type of coin at just PCGS.