<< <i>If they did deem it a 9 and the 10 a mistake, they would cut him a check for the difference between and 9 and 10 and let him keep the card in a 9 holder. It's happened to me when I bought a higher grade card for a good bit of money. I felt it was overgraded in its existing grade, but would've been a hell of a card in lower grade. They saw the flaw, regraded it properly, and reimbursed me for the difference. Very fair and swift process. >>
Interesting information. I assumed he sent it back to make sure they agreed that the holder was legit. >>
correct. and maybe slightly paranoid, but i do this w any card above a certain threshhold. i can spot a tampered case or flip, but w/ todays technology, i just dont want to be the first documented case of some new type of scam or 100% completely fabricated case/holder.
I admittedly know nothing about the value of a 74 Ryan but I do know the general value of Magic Bird RC's. David mentioned the dueling PSA 9 auctions of PSA 9 Bird Magic RCs tonight (one stickered and one without sticker). IMO they were equal in eye appeal with the non stickered one having a little more print dots but no black line while the other 9 had a faint black line visible and less print dots. Both cards were very well centered with sharp corners and strong edges. I would argue that they were very equal with the deciding factor being how strongly you feel about the black line or the print dots. Both would fall into high end for the grade territory given their overall appearances. Final bids:
Probstein also sold a high quality 9 this past week for $2148.45
I don't have VCP info, but I would guess the range for PSA 9's has been between $1800-2400 trending upwards over the last few months. I have been in the market for a nice 9 for a while and I was the underbidder on the non sticker 9 tonight with PWCC. I guess I should have been more aggressive with my bid. I was hoping the sticker 9 would attract the bigger bids and I would be able to snag the other one at a better price. I wonder what it would have taken to get the one I wanted. Congrats to the winner there as they got a very nice card at a good price.
Congrats to the consignor of the certified high end 9 and to Brent. It is clear that the sticker is in fact dramatically creating value for his consignors at least in the short term. It also does not seem to be detracting from the value of his other lots (even listings TPG identical to the certified item seem to be holding up in sale price while competing with the certified card). If this holds up, it is a win-win for PWCC as they do not seem to be cannibalizing their own sales with the sticker program. They seem to be just creating rabid bidding and prices on their certified cards, which in the long run raises the prices of all cards within the grade. Which further elevates future sales. And the cycle continues.
I suspect we will be seeing more sellers utilizing the sticker concept if this kind of rabid bidding continues. It almost equates to getting a bump on review without having to submit the card to PSA for review.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
the resubmission is interesting...can you resubmit to see if its genuine but DONT downgrade the grade. Meaning you want to keep it a ten but are only worried about fraud. Unless its a blatant overgrade. also, I'm sure they won't just take any receipt that someone can make up. SMR and or VCP?
begsu...thats a nice looking 10.
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all.
<< <i>I suspect we will be seeing more sellers utilizing the sticker concept if this kind of rabid bidding continues. It almost equates to getting a bump on review without having to submit the card to PSA for review. >>
<< <i>Why do people pay more for a card sold by PWCC? >>
I still can't figure it out. On the 1980 Topps Bird/Magic RC, $4200 for a PSA 9....and it shows a trace of the print line. More than double the price of what they have been going for.
Looks like you are correct IMO - the back centering is what is hurting it from being a 10. Based on the front of the card it looks good enough for a PSA 10 holder.
I liked it at first blush, but there's some kind of white smearing in the lower right white border frame area. If it were a hair to the left I'd be cool with the smear, but with the smear and it favoring the right side by a hair, I couldn't do crazy record money. Especially because I've held two 9s that were better than this one, which become a comparative standard; basically whenever paying record money it's gotta be the best for the grade one has seen. The 75 Brett is a card I've pretty much hoarded and studied over the years. Iconic image from youth. There was one in a local shop with a $100 price tag in the display case-- and it was something we'd stare it, dreaming.
I agree with Matty. The PD on the bottom right edge (if it is, in fact, on the card) precludes it from being high end, imo, though it is still a very nice card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yes, sir. Pretty card no doubt. For average 9 money or in an 8.5 holder because of the PD, it's amazing. But when paying a new record-- or shattering one, as the case may very well be with PWCC-- it's good to be a real picky buyer.
PWCC has the two highest Brett PSA 9 sales ever --- $2,324.00 and $2,250.00.............both of those where really nice.............it's going to be interesting to see how much the high end certified one sells for.
another range of questions pertaining to the strong prices the "high end" stickered cards are getting.
what percentage do you think the cards will be submitted for "review" will actually get the bump? 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% tops, maybe...
does it make sense to crack out any of these cards and submit for the gem (or grade bump) considering the hefty prices as compared to similar grades? seems very risk inherent, considering...
if reviewed and denied, will the 4x - 5x premium price point stand the test of time and be considered by the general population as "basically a bump"?*
*meaning, if this brett sees a $5000+ price tag because it's "high end", however not really a shot at a 10, as discussed, is it reasonable to think someone might flip her later on down the road and break even, let alone turn a profit? (near future talking, not due to inflation).
The back is bothersome, but I've seen 10s like that. It's probably a combination of things.
There are always elements to a card that don't come through via scans, that in combination to the easily visible ones, arrive you at the grade.
There's subjectivity to grading of course, so if the right grader gets this card then it may actually bump to a 10. My guess is that's what the aggressive bidders are counting on given the PWCC verification and it's a trend we'll get to see a lot more of as PWCC as their clients cash in.
<< <i>And people thought the BBCE shrinkwrap commanded a premium!
Does a collector buying psa 9 1974 Nolan Ryan cards really need a subjective opinion by the seller of said card to believe it is high end? Isn't that the point of the PSA 9 grade and your eyesight in the first place?
I can understand a small premium being added to the hammer price, but this one is on a completely different level. >>
BBCE shrink wrap is nothing like the PWCC "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
BBCE shrink wrap means that one of the foremost experts in unopened material has examined the item and rendered an opinion that it is authentic. How many unopened collectors can pick up evidence of tampering in an unopened product at a consistent percentage rate anywhere near to what Steve Hart can achieve?
Unless Brent is now a recognized expert, the PWCC sticker means that someone thinks a card is nice for the technical grade. Most collectors should be able to tell that without being guided by someone else who is no more an expert than they are.
It would be more valuable for Brent to create a form of provenance that a particular card, with a particular flip number was sold by PWCC. He could even keep an image database of all of the cards he has sold which could be made publicly available and checked by collectors to see what the card looked like when it was sold by PWCC. Now THAT would be very valuable IMO.
This sticker thing is nothing more than effective marketing aimed at manipulating the opinions of the less experienced. >>
Isn't any type of opinion based grading (which is pretty much all grading) aimed at manipulating the opinions of the less experienced? If you don't trust Brent's opinion, buy the card and not the sticker!
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
LOL, "Probstein Preferred," like it!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
LOL, "Probstein Preferred," like it! >>
And what if they joined forces? Imagine the prices realized from a PPWCC123 auction! >>
Prob Card Collector 456 is probably not a contender for the new name if they joined forces
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>I liked it at first blush, but there's some kind of white smearing in the lower right white border frame area. If it were a hair to the left I'd be cool with the smear, but with the smear and it favoring the right side by a hair, I couldn't do crazy record money. Especially because I've held two 9s that were better than this one, which become a comparative standard; basically whenever paying record money it's gotta be the best for the grade one has seen. The 75 Brett is a card I've pretty much hoarded and studied over the years. Iconic image from youth. There was one in a local shop with a $100 price tag in the display case-- and it was something we'd stare it, dreaming. >>
By inverting the colors in paint, I'm not so sure that spot is on the card. I know I have a few PSA graded cards that have slight scuffs like that in the plastic. If I was going for it, I would contact Brent and make 100% sure one way or the other.
One other thing I noted when reversing the color is that it appears that there is a slight surface bump on further up that right side in the green border, and a print dot to the right side of the Royals logo. Still, it's an amazing looking card even when picking it to death.
I forgot to add that I don't believe it's favoring the right side on the front. Part of the right border is hid by the PSA holder's bump stop. That thing is about as spot on as it comes on the front.
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person
Interested in 60's and 70's psa and raw star and hof cards
Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them.
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person >>
Have you seen in person? Is it yours?
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I think that the sticker brings the "bump-able" cards to market. Whereas in the past, these cards might be resubmitted for upgrade, reholdered and reviewed over and over again. Now, that owner will say screw it, I'll give to PWCC if I can get a sticker, then I won't have to keep resubmitting hoping for a bump.
I personally feel the time and RISK involved in paying 2-3X VCP in hopes of a bump are unwarranted. And, you're taking a large amount of risk based on a computer scan. Granted PWCC scans are the best, but if your entire purchase is dependent on a bump, wouldn't you want a really close live visual of that card?
The buyer of the '74 Ryan certainly feels that card will bump, and their hoping PSA made an error in judgement. Doubt it.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I would think Brent has the leverage in this situation. If he starts putting high end certifications on non-high end cards then that devalues the sticker. For the most part, it seems like the high end stickers have indeed been put on high end cards. I have yet to see a post about a card that was stickered but did not meet the qualifications of high end for the grade. If he starts slapping the sticker on everything than you will quickly see the premiums start to depreciate. Brent responded on this forum and stated how many cards received the sticker in this auction cycle. It was a very small percentage. I have looked at a lot of auctions and felt there could have been more stickers handed out. It is smart to keep the percentage low though as the exclusivity is what increases the premium. Based on how the most recent auctions have been going, even if a card does not receive a sticker it is very likely to achieve a great sale price through PWCC. Not consigning with PWCC because you don't get a sticker will probably just cost the seller money as even regular PWCC auctions sell for higher than just about any other avenue.
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I would think Brent has the leverage in this situation. If he starts putting high end certifications on non-high end cards then that devalues the sticker. For the most part, it seems like the high end stickers have indeed been put on high end cards. I have yet to see a post about a card that was stickered but did not meet the qualifications of high end for the grade. If he starts slapping the sticker on everything than you will quickly see the premiums start to depreciate. Brent responded on this forum and stated how many cards received the sticker in this auction cycle. It was a very small percentage. I have looked at a lot of auctions and felt there could have been more stickers handed out. It is smart to keep the percentage low though as the exclusivity is what increases the premium. Based on how the most recent auctions have been going, even if a card does not receive a sticker it is very likely to achieve a great sale price through PWCC. Not consigning with PWCC because you don't get a sticker will probably just cost the seller money as even regular PWCC auctions sell for higher than just about any other avenue. >>
Have we heard from anyone who bought a stickered card and got the corresponding bump? Would love to know.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
In reference to a post up above, not everyone who bids on a card that gets Brent's "extra eye appeal nod" is doing so seeking to play the bump game.
Also, there are PWCC cards that definitely are "ultra high-end," but haven't gotten his personal opinion sticker. For example, I just received the Brett Mini I won in the recent auction; it didn't have an accompanying sticker, yet nonetheless-- as someone who's handled almost every high-end mini around-- it'd get a "high-end sticker" from this collector. In fact it handily trumps quite a few 9s I've owned over the years. With thousands of listing, great cards are bound to slip through the cracks, just as there are bound to be head-scratcher calls that get the sticker. Even umpires whose jobs are to get a call right blow a strike or ball call quite often
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person >>
Have you seen in person? Is it yours? >>
Yes. i paid the premium. It only has a sliver of black on the right side in person. Corners are nice and no chipping along the edges It's a nice 71. I'm happy with it
Interested in 60's and 70's psa and raw star and hof cards
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters.
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
I agree with this. In this current market, snipe or no snipe, you are going to have to pay through the nose if you want something bad enough these days.
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
I agree with this. In this current market, snipe or no snipe, you are going to have to pay through the nose if you want something bad enough these days. >>
First of all there are lengthy research papers that disprove the theory with real data. Second. How dumb can someone be to think that their bidding strategy is smarter then the market. As if they can predict where the puck is going with perfection. It is so ridiculous.
All they are doing is proving they don't understand markets. When a card like this over a five year period goes from $700 to $4,200 it is simply too much price spread. If the card was stuck in a range and you wanted to save a few bucks maybe but once the price started moving forget about it.
Another record setting sale with the sticker. Brent isn't looking too bad right now.
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not.
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not. >>
IMO sniping does many good things, such as:
1. Hides a bidders interest until the last few seconds. When people see more interest they can tend to think they need to bid stronger to win an item. 2. Hides a bidders max bid until the last few seconds. This protects a bidder from others seeing what they will bid as well as from those who shill auctions by bumping a bid incrementally and then retracting their bid if they overshoot the legitimate bidder. 3. Allows a bidder the convenience of setting and forgetting. This is especially important when bidding on a lot of lots at once. 4. Protects a bidder from emotional bidding. Sometimes, if a bidder bids early and sees their bid get bumped or passed, for any reason good or bad, they will bid more than they otherwise would have because of an emotional response. 5. Makes auctions more fun as there is less stress and its automated so you can kick back and watch the fireworks.
Now I think Dpeck has a point if people snipe based solely off of VCP. There are many different ways to come up with a bid and VCP should be just one source of info to be considered.
That said I do feel that sniping will generally save you more money than not sniping, and it will be more fun.
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not. >>
IMO sniping does many good things, such as:
1. Hides a bidders interest until the last few seconds. When people see more interest they can tend to think they need to bid stronger to win an item. 2. Hides a bidders max bid until the last few seconds. This protects a bidder from others seeing what they will bid as well as from those who shill auctions by bumping a bid incrementally and the retracting their bid if they overshoot the legitimate bidder. 3. Allows a bidder the convenience of setting and forgetting. This is especially important when bidding on a lot of lots at once. 4. Protects a bidder from emotional bidding. Sometimes, if a bidder bids early and sees their bid get bumped or passed, for any reason good or bad, they will bid more than they otherwise would have because of an emotional response. 5. Makes auctions more fun as there is less stress and its automated so you can kick back and watch the fireworks.
Now I think Dpeck has a point if people snipe based solely off of VCP. There are many different ways to come up with a bid and VCP should be just one source of info to be considered.
That said I do feel that sniping will generally save you more money than not sniping, and it will be more fun. >>
I do not believe sniping saves money at all. Quite frankly many auctions with heavy sniping have been the one's shattering records because of the concept of a nuclear snipe. Take this George Brett. The final two bids took the card up $1,722. This in my view was clearly two bids that were placed at much higher levels just in case that collided.
For the first few years I was a member of CU the VCP Snipe belief was pervasive here. Probably not so much any longer with card prices blowing those numbers out of the water the past few years.
There was a Clemente thread where it was debated at length so I decided to see if there were any research reports on the topic. There was and the finding was no measurable cost savings associated with it.
With many of the most serious bids coming at the end and so many bidders adopting the strategy its effectiveness continues to decline.
The timing of the bid is irrelevant. What matters is the number entered. You could have bid a record setting $3,500 on the Brett the second it was listed. That bid would have been in the lead the entire time and still played no role in the final outcome.
Markets are far to complex for one strategy to be the be end all.
There is no point in arguing with DPeck over this. He simply points to hot cards getting records prices and says "see sniping is pointless". People have gotten tired of arguing with him about it. The fact that he calls it the VCP snipe belief shows that he still doesn't seem to understand the point behind sniping. I would posit that more people snipe now than 5 years ago.
For the points you mentioned there is no debate that #2 and #4 are benefits of the sniping strategy.
Comments
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<< <i>
<< <i>If they did deem it a 9 and the 10 a mistake, they would cut him a check for the difference between and 9 and 10 and let him keep the card in a 9 holder. It's happened to me when I bought a higher grade card for a good bit of money. I felt it was overgraded in its existing grade, but would've been a hell of a card in lower grade. They saw the flaw, regraded it properly, and reimbursed me for the difference. Very fair and swift process. >>
Interesting information. I assumed he sent it back to make sure they agreed that the holder was legit. >>
exactly. >>
That the holder was legit, as in not a fake slab?
edit: especially w that pd.
And that is a super nice card you have there, despite the print dot
PWCC certified sticker $4191.41
PWCC w/o sticker $2283.88
Probstein also sold a high quality 9 this past week for $2148.45
I don't have VCP info, but I would guess the range for PSA 9's has been between $1800-2400 trending upwards over the last few months. I have been in the market for a nice 9 for a while and I was the underbidder on the non sticker 9 tonight with PWCC. I guess I should have been more aggressive with my bid. I was hoping the sticker 9 would attract the bigger bids and I would be able to snag the other one at a better price. I wonder what it would have taken to get the one I wanted. Congrats to the winner there as they got a very nice card at a good price.
Congrats to the consignor of the certified high end 9 and to Brent. It is clear that the sticker is in fact dramatically creating value for his consignors at least in the short term. It also does not seem to be detracting from the value of his other lots (even listings TPG identical to the certified item seem to be holding up in sale price while competing with the certified card). If this holds up, it is a win-win for PWCC as they do not seem to be cannibalizing their own sales with the sticker program. They seem to be just creating rabid bidding and prices on their certified cards, which in the long run raises the prices of all cards within the grade. Which further elevates future sales. And the cycle continues.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
also, I'm sure they won't just take any receipt that someone can make up. SMR and or VCP?
begsu...thats a nice looking 10.
<< <i>I suspect we will be seeing more sellers utilizing the sticker concept if this kind of rabid bidding continues. It almost equates to getting a bump on review without having to submit the card to PSA for review. >>
Do you think PSA will start grading cards as 9.5?
<< <i>Why do people pay more for a card sold by PWCC? >>
I still can't figure it out. On the 1980 Topps Bird/Magic RC, $4200 for a PSA 9....and it shows a trace of the print line. More than double the price of what they have been going for.
Bernie Kosar collector
This one is going to go for big money. $1,725 already.
<< <i>75 Brett
This one is going to go for big money. $1,725 already. >>
I wonder if the centering on the back is the only thing that kept it from being a PSA 10?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Instagram: mattyc_collection
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
doesn't a printing error, smudge, artifact knock it down a grade?
what percentage do you think the cards will be submitted for "review" will actually get the bump? 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% tops, maybe...
does it make sense to crack out any of these cards and submit for the gem (or grade bump) considering the hefty prices as compared to similar grades? seems very risk inherent, considering...
if reviewed and denied, will the 4x - 5x premium price point stand the test of time and be considered by the general population as "basically a bump"?*
*meaning, if this brett sees a $5000+ price tag because it's "high end", however not really a shot at a 10, as discussed, is it reasonable to think someone might flip her later on down the road and break even, let alone turn a profit? (near future talking, not due to inflation).
Ryan Hoge - PSA President, IG: @maysmantle
There are always elements to a card that don't come through via scans, that in combination to the easily visible ones, arrive you at the grade.
There's subjectivity to grading of course, so if the right grader gets this card then it may actually bump to a 10. My guess is that's what the aggressive bidders are counting on given the PWCC verification and it's a trend we'll get to see a lot more of as PWCC as their clients cash in.
<< <i>
<< <i>And people thought the BBCE shrinkwrap commanded a premium!
Does a collector buying psa 9 1974 Nolan Ryan cards really need a subjective opinion by the seller of said card to believe it is high end? Isn't that the point of the PSA 9 grade and your eyesight in the first place?
I can understand a small premium being added to the hammer price, but this one is on a completely different level. >>
BBCE shrink wrap is nothing like the PWCC "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
BBCE shrink wrap means that one of the foremost experts in unopened material has examined the item
and rendered an opinion that it is authentic. How many unopened collectors can pick up evidence of
tampering in an unopened product at a consistent percentage rate anywhere near to what Steve Hart
can achieve?
Unless Brent is now a recognized expert, the PWCC sticker means that someone thinks a card is
nice for the technical grade. Most collectors should be able to tell that without being guided by
someone else who is no more an expert than they are.
It would be more valuable for Brent to create a form of provenance that a particular card, with a particular
flip number was sold by PWCC. He could even keep an image database of all of the cards he has sold which
could be made publicly available and checked by collectors to see what the card looked like when it was sold
by PWCC. Now THAT would be very valuable IMO.
This sticker thing is nothing more than effective marketing aimed at manipulating the opinions of the less experienced. >>
Isn't any type of opinion based grading (which is pretty much all grading) aimed at manipulating the opinions of the less experienced? If you don't trust Brent's opinion, buy the card and not the sticker!
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
LOL, "Probstein Preferred," like it!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
LOL, "Probstein Preferred," like it! >>
And what if they joined forces? Imagine the prices realized from a PPWCC123 auction!
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
"Probstein preferred" would be really interesting if Probstein understood what "centered" means.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
LOL, "Probstein Preferred," like it! >>
And what if they joined forces? Imagine the prices realized from a PPWCC123 auction! >>
Prob Card Collector 456 is probably not a contender for the new name if they joined forces
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
<< <i>
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
"Probstein preferred" would be really interesting if Probstein understood what "centered" means. >>
Technically everything is "centered" so he is just using some creative literary license when he lists his auctions as centered
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I am still waiting for the "Probstein preferred" sticker to come out and challenge Brent's new sticker. That would make things interesting. >>
"Probstein preferred" would be really interesting if Probstein understood what "centered" means. >>
Technically everything is "centered" so he is just using some creative literary license when he lists his auctions as centered
Personally, the whole 'centered' nonsense in the title just turns me off and closes my wallet. Especially, when the card is clearly not centered.
That is a great size.
<< <i>I liked it at first blush, but there's some kind of white smearing in the lower right white border frame area. If it were a hair to the left I'd be cool with the smear, but with the smear and it favoring the right side by a hair, I couldn't do crazy record money. Especially because I've held two 9s that were better than this one, which become a comparative standard; basically whenever paying record money it's gotta be the best for the grade one has seen. The 75 Brett is a card I've pretty much hoarded and studied over the years. Iconic image from youth. There was one in a local shop with a $100 price tag in the display case-- and it was something we'd stare it, dreaming. >>
By inverting the colors in paint, I'm not so sure that spot is on the card. I know I have a few PSA graded cards that have slight scuffs like that in the plastic. If I was going for it, I would contact Brent and make 100% sure one way or the other.
One other thing I noted when reversing the color is that it appears that there is a slight surface bump on further up that right side in the green border, and a print dot to the right side of the Royals logo. Still, it's an amazing looking card even when picking it to death.
I forgot to add that I don't believe it's favoring the right side on the front. Part of the right border is hid by the PSA holder's bump stop. That thing is about as spot on as it comes on the front.
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person >>
Have you seen in person? Is it yours?
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I think that the sticker brings the "bump-able" cards to market. Whereas in the past, these cards might be resubmitted for upgrade, reholdered and reviewed over and over again. Now, that owner will say screw it, I'll give to PWCC if I can get a sticker, then I won't have to keep resubmitting hoping for a bump.
I personally feel the time and RISK involved in paying 2-3X VCP in hopes of a bump are unwarranted. And, you're taking a large amount of risk based on a computer scan. Granted PWCC scans are the best, but if your entire purchase is dependent on a bump, wouldn't you want a really close live visual of that card?
The buyer of the '74 Ryan certainly feels that card will bump, and their hoping PSA made an error in judgement. Doubt it.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I would think Brent has the leverage in this situation. If he starts putting high end certifications on non-high end cards then that devalues the sticker. For the most part, it seems like the high end stickers have indeed been put on high end cards. I have yet to see a post about a card that was stickered but did not meet the qualifications of high end for the grade. If he starts slapping the sticker on everything than you will quickly see the premiums start to depreciate. Brent responded on this forum and stated how many cards received the sticker in this auction cycle. It was a very small percentage. I have looked at a lot of auctions and felt there could have been more stickers handed out. It is smart to keep the percentage low though as the exclusivity is what increases the premium. Based on how the most recent auctions have been going, even if a card does not receive a sticker it is very likely to achieve a great sale price through PWCC. Not consigning with PWCC because you don't get a sticker will probably just cost the seller money as even regular PWCC auctions sell for higher than just about any other avenue.
<< <i>
<< <i>Big question is going to be will people with high end cards insist that a condition of consigning with PWCC be that their card(s) receive the high end sticker? Could draw consignments or possibly lose them. >>
I would think Brent has the leverage in this situation. If he starts putting high end certifications on non-high end cards then that devalues the sticker. For the most part, it seems like the high end stickers have indeed been put on high end cards. I have yet to see a post about a card that was stickered but did not meet the qualifications of high end for the grade. If he starts slapping the sticker on everything than you will quickly see the premiums start to depreciate. Brent responded on this forum and stated how many cards received the sticker in this auction cycle. It was a very small percentage. I have looked at a lot of auctions and felt there could have been more stickers handed out. It is smart to keep the percentage low though as the exclusivity is what increases the premium. Based on how the most recent auctions have been going, even if a card does not receive a sticker it is very likely to achieve a great sale price through PWCC. Not consigning with PWCC because you don't get a sticker will probably just cost the seller money as even regular PWCC auctions sell for higher than just about any other avenue. >>
Have we heard from anyone who bought a stickered card and got the corresponding bump? Would love to know.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Also, there are PWCC cards that definitely are "ultra high-end," but haven't gotten his personal opinion sticker. For example, I just received the Brett Mini I won in the recent auction; it didn't have an accompanying sticker, yet nonetheless-- as someone who's handled almost every high-end mini around-- it'd get a "high-end sticker" from this collector. In fact it handily trumps quite a few 9s I've owned over the years. With thousands of listing, great cards are bound to slip through the cracks, just as there are bound to be head-scratcher calls that get the sticker. Even umpires whose jobs are to get a call right blow a strike or ball call quite often
Instagram: mattyc_collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not sure about the high-end sticker. I bid on the Munson rookie, well over VCP; but while reviewing the card I'm thinking "why is this card not high-end", it looked beautiful to me. I'm looking for a flaw because it must have one since PWCC didn't give it a sticker.
And therein lies the problem. For the extra value on the high-end cards, is there a subsequent de-valuing of the non high-end cards? Don't know, but I guess I'm in the minority because non high-end cards went for a bundle also.
I also bid on the 71 Banks, but again, I'm thinking why did this card NOT get a sticker. So I went back a few hours before the deadline, looked at the card again, and didn't like the centering all that much, so I lowered my bid to non-aggressive. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for a flaw? Needless to say, I was blown away on that one.
I imagine some of PWCC's big consignors are jockeying to get that sticker now.
I admire that Brent is taking initiative and leading the charge for e-bay driven card auctions, so i can't fault him for that. They are still the best IMHO. >>
The Munson is very nice for the grade but OC R/L must have had a non qualifier. looks much worse in person >>
Have you seen in person? Is it yours? >>
Yes. i paid the premium. It only has a sliver of black on the right side in person. Corners are nice and no chipping along the edges It's a nice 71. I'm happy with it
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters.
<< <i>
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
I agree with this. In this current market, snipe or no snipe, you are going to have to pay through the nose if you want something bad enough these days.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
I agree with this. In this current market, snipe or no snipe, you are going to have to pay through the nose if you want something bad enough these days. >>
First of all there are lengthy research papers that disprove the theory with real data. Second. How dumb can someone be to think that their bidding strategy is smarter then the market. As if they can predict where the puck is going with perfection. It is so ridiculous.
All they are doing is proving they don't understand markets. When a card like this over a five year period goes from $700 to $4,200 it is simply too much price spread. If the card was stuck in a range and you wanted to save a few bucks maybe but once the price started moving forget about it.
Another record setting sale with the sticker. Brent isn't looking too bad right now.
<< <i>
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not. >>
IMO sniping does many good things, such as:
1. Hides a bidders interest until the last few seconds. When people see more interest they can tend to think they need to bid stronger to win an item.
2. Hides a bidders max bid until the last few seconds. This protects a bidder from others seeing what they will bid as well as from those who shill auctions by bumping a bid incrementally and then retracting their bid if they overshoot the legitimate bidder.
3. Allows a bidder the convenience of setting and forgetting. This is especially important when bidding on a lot of lots at once.
4. Protects a bidder from emotional bidding. Sometimes, if a bidder bids early and sees their bid get bumped or passed, for any reason good or bad, they will bid more than they otherwise would have because of an emotional response.
5. Makes auctions more fun as there is less stress and its automated so you can kick back and watch the fireworks.
Now I think Dpeck has a point if people snipe based solely off of VCP. There are many different ways to come up with a bid and VCP should be just one source of info to be considered.
That said I do feel that sniping will generally save you more money than not sniping, and it will be more fun.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>PWCC auctioned off a PSA 9 George Brett rookie that would have sold for $2,500.00 with that "high end" sticker/card, but another guy entered the bidding and pushed the
price up to 4,220.00
This price must have set a new record for a PSA 9 Topps Brett rookie. >>
Nice price for this card. All those with the VCP snipe bidding theories lose once again. I just have to laugh as the bull market rages on. Years ago members would go on and on about how snipe bidding saves you money. Sure. When the bull is running it is running and once again no bidding strategy matters. >>
Um.... Just because a few high end rookies are selling for stupid money, simply doesn't mean that sniping won't save you money on 95% of auctions. The fact that a low snipe would not have won these high end cards doesn't prove sniping doesn't save money, it only proves that buyers are being influenced by a sticker. If your argument is that certain high end HOF rookies have been exceeding VCP, then you are correct. But this phenomena has nothing to do with effectiveness of snipes. If that Brett sells for $5k and my snipe was $3k, my not winning doesn't prove that sniping is ineffective. I still have a max bid I'm willing to pay and if the price soars past my max, I don't want it anymore. This doesn't prove my snipe "didn't work", because in order for my snipe to work in the first place, I would have needed to be willing to pay $2k more than my estimated value, which I'm not. >>
IMO sniping does many good things, such as:
1. Hides a bidders interest until the last few seconds. When people see more interest they can tend to think they need to bid stronger to win an item.
2. Hides a bidders max bid until the last few seconds. This protects a bidder from others seeing what they will bid as well as from those who shill auctions by bumping a bid incrementally and the retracting their bid if they overshoot the legitimate bidder.
3. Allows a bidder the convenience of setting and forgetting. This is especially important when bidding on a lot of lots at once.
4. Protects a bidder from emotional bidding. Sometimes, if a bidder bids early and sees their bid get bumped or passed, for any reason good or bad, they will bid more than they otherwise would have because of an emotional response.
5. Makes auctions more fun as there is less stress and its automated so you can kick back and watch the fireworks.
Now I think Dpeck has a point if people snipe based solely off of VCP. There are many different ways to come up with a bid and VCP should be just one source of info to be considered.
That said I do feel that sniping will generally save you more money than not sniping, and it will be more fun. >>
I do not believe sniping saves money at all. Quite frankly many auctions with heavy sniping have been the one's shattering records because of the concept of a nuclear snipe. Take this George Brett. The final two bids took the card up $1,722. This in my view was clearly two bids that were placed at much higher levels just in case that collided.
For the first few years I was a member of CU the VCP Snipe belief was pervasive here. Probably not so much any longer with card prices blowing those numbers out of the water the past few years.
There was a Clemente thread where it was debated at length so I decided to see if there were any research reports on the topic. There was and the finding was no measurable cost savings associated with it.
With many of the most serious bids coming at the end and so many bidders adopting the strategy its effectiveness continues to decline.
The timing of the bid is irrelevant. What matters is the number entered. You could have bid a record setting $3,500 on the Brett the second it was listed. That bid would have been in the lead the entire time and still played no role in the final outcome.
Markets are far to complex for one strategy to be the be end all.
For the points you mentioned there is no debate that #2 and #4 are benefits of the sniping strategy.
Robb