'71 BB Rack Rip--player card header--was it real??
flatfoot816
Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭
Not only was it not real--it was definitely not spectacular !!
As many of you know there has been debate in the hobby for some time (and prior threads posted) about 1971 BB rack packs that have a regular '71 Topps card header--as opposed to the normal Topps yellow (for 1971) rack pack headers. Many believe that Topps ONLY produced racks in that time period with the yellow header cards--and even then only for certain series (I do not personally understand how anyone can be so certain on which series had the header 40 years ago). All this calls into question the legitimacy of the racks that have the card header.
I am not sure where the debate began or why these racks were called into question, but with all the debate recently on racks offered for sale, I thought that I would try to add some proof--albeit a small level of it--by ripping one of the '71 racks in my possession that has a card header.
Here is a link to the prior thread started by paulmaul in 2012. You will note that one respected board member commented that he believed these player card racks to be legit Topps product (sorry Dave)--even saying that Steve Hart thinks that the card header racks are legit Topps product. (I have no personal knowledge on what Steve thinks of player card header racks--but see below!)
prior thread on card headers
here is a picture of the rack
I cannot immediately recall where I got the rack--other than to say it was not from eBay--but one of the AHs. I also have 2 other card header racks.
After ripping this rack--there is no question that IMO this was not a legit Topps factory rack. No question this rack was fabricated. Here are the reasons why I came to this conclusion...
1. there were 52 cards--17 in each of the far left cells and 18 in the last one---so the 1st 2 cells were short 1 card each--OK not too uncommon back then. But EVERY card was Ex or worse. Vast majority had multiple corner dings, about 5 had very visible creases. Almost like they had been flipped at one time!! It was a split series rack--series 3 + 4 -- so theoretically there should have been cards from #264-523. Out of a possible 259 cards in series 3-4----there are 13 HOFs including Ryan and Aaron, as well as the Foster and Garvey rookies. So I had a 25% chance of hitting SOMEONE
my cards spanned #298-517. Interestingly there were no cards from #264-297. In fact only 1 card #'d in the 200s, 33 cards #'d in the 300s, 24 cards #'d in the 400s, and 5 cards #'d in the 500s. There were 5 dups--George Stone, John Stephenson, Tom Murphy, Tigers rookies, and Steve Harrigan. There was 1 triplicate--that of the immortal Jim French. So out of 52 cards--13 of them--or exactly 25%--were of 6 players. Odd? I have never opened a '71 spilt series rack so I have no perspective--but this collation seems odd.
Needless to say there was no star power of any kind. not only were there no HOFs---there were no guys even close to being HOFs--the only noticeable names were Bert Campy and Joe Rudi
Not 1--and I am not kidding--not 1 card is gradable. Did you EVER hear anyone say that after ripping a legit Topps issued rack pack--from any year?? I mean that's why you want to buy rack packs-- because it is the BEST chance of getting hi grade cards. It's impossible that this rack was original with the poor quality cards that came out
One thing that really threw me, however, was the condition of the cellophane. The cellophane on this rack was clearly brittle, seemingly aged appropriately, and had that '71 rack cellophane "look". In order to fabricate a passable pre-'76 rack (in 1977 Topps started to use a different type of cellophane to package their racks--they look newer and shinier than prior years and is lighter) -- you would have to have passable cellophane to package it. The rack I just ripped had that cellophane. In fact many of the card header racks I have seen, as well as my other 2, have that same cellophane "old rack" look. Could it be that these were made way back in the day using the same cellophane so they are now aged appropriately and therefore look legit??
Although there is no doubt that this particular rack was not a Topps factory issued one--OK I'll say it--it was a fake--what does that say about the other card header racks? Logically if Steve Hart did say in the past and continues to affirm that '71 player card header racks are legit Topps issued product--then my little experiment means nothing. Except that this guy will not be buying anymore card header racks.
And we will find out soon what he says---and this thread may end up shooting me in the foot -- because I have the other 2 '71 card header racks at BBCE for authentication. It'll be interesting to see what Steve says about them.
Steve--STOP reading this NOW!!!!! LOL
One last point--this of transparency. I was the consignor of the racks that PWCC had in last month's auction. I had all the racks for years and had purchased some of them for over $1K each many years ago. Still looking for the invoices to figure out where I got them--but Mastro/Legendary rings a bell (YIKES NOW -- but who knew back then about them??) Some of you questioned the legitimacy of the '70 racks with Ryan and Clemente and the '71 racks. All I can say is I bought them years ago from THEN respected sources. I never thought them to be anything but legit Topps issued racks. When Brent contacted me about the racks he said he was going to describe them as he did after getting some feedback by board members. I agreed out of concerns by board members and the hobby.
One of the items was a '71 rack with Garvey on back--also GAI slabbed. It has a card header. The PWCC description did note that it was believed not to be a legit Topps issued product. The Garvey rack and another I own-- were obtained from Memory Lane as part of their May 2011 auction (lots 692 and 693). I do not recall the ML description reflagging these racks as possible fakes. Obviously I would not have bought them if they had. In total I paid almost $1,400 for both racks. I believe Steve has lot #692 for authentication, as well as one other header rack I own.
One final note--interestingly, another rack I consigned--the '71 with Bench and Blyleven--has the correct yellow header. Nevertheless others believe it to be a non-legit Topps issued rack for other reasons. Frankly, I do believe that the Bench/Blyeven rack is a legit Topps issued rack-notwithstanding others' comments to the contrary. If I am not mistaken--it was sent to Steve for authentication (along with many other vintage racks) but he was unsure so he did not slab it. He did not say the rack was definitely bad.
Final Final Note on those racks--The Clemente rack was not paid for and is being returned to me by Brent per our agreement. The '71 Bench/Blyleven rack is up now for auction as the 1st winner did not pay--with same disclaimer. Again I believe this particular rack to be legit Topps issued product. The '70 Ryan rack did sell--if whoever bought it is unhappy for any reason (notwithstanding the disclaimer in the description)--I will offer a full refund. Same with whoever got the Garvey rack if they are unhappy.
I did videotape the rip--but cannot seem to load it. I'll try again later.
Hope that you all find this informative
As many of you know there has been debate in the hobby for some time (and prior threads posted) about 1971 BB rack packs that have a regular '71 Topps card header--as opposed to the normal Topps yellow (for 1971) rack pack headers. Many believe that Topps ONLY produced racks in that time period with the yellow header cards--and even then only for certain series (I do not personally understand how anyone can be so certain on which series had the header 40 years ago). All this calls into question the legitimacy of the racks that have the card header.
I am not sure where the debate began or why these racks were called into question, but with all the debate recently on racks offered for sale, I thought that I would try to add some proof--albeit a small level of it--by ripping one of the '71 racks in my possession that has a card header.
Here is a link to the prior thread started by paulmaul in 2012. You will note that one respected board member commented that he believed these player card racks to be legit Topps product (sorry Dave)--even saying that Steve Hart thinks that the card header racks are legit Topps product. (I have no personal knowledge on what Steve thinks of player card header racks--but see below!)
prior thread on card headers
here is a picture of the rack
I cannot immediately recall where I got the rack--other than to say it was not from eBay--but one of the AHs. I also have 2 other card header racks.
After ripping this rack--there is no question that IMO this was not a legit Topps factory rack. No question this rack was fabricated. Here are the reasons why I came to this conclusion...
1. there were 52 cards--17 in each of the far left cells and 18 in the last one---so the 1st 2 cells were short 1 card each--OK not too uncommon back then. But EVERY card was Ex or worse. Vast majority had multiple corner dings, about 5 had very visible creases. Almost like they had been flipped at one time!! It was a split series rack--series 3 + 4 -- so theoretically there should have been cards from #264-523. Out of a possible 259 cards in series 3-4----there are 13 HOFs including Ryan and Aaron, as well as the Foster and Garvey rookies. So I had a 25% chance of hitting SOMEONE
my cards spanned #298-517. Interestingly there were no cards from #264-297. In fact only 1 card #'d in the 200s, 33 cards #'d in the 300s, 24 cards #'d in the 400s, and 5 cards #'d in the 500s. There were 5 dups--George Stone, John Stephenson, Tom Murphy, Tigers rookies, and Steve Harrigan. There was 1 triplicate--that of the immortal Jim French. So out of 52 cards--13 of them--or exactly 25%--were of 6 players. Odd? I have never opened a '71 spilt series rack so I have no perspective--but this collation seems odd.
Needless to say there was no star power of any kind. not only were there no HOFs---there were no guys even close to being HOFs--the only noticeable names were Bert Campy and Joe Rudi
Not 1--and I am not kidding--not 1 card is gradable. Did you EVER hear anyone say that after ripping a legit Topps issued rack pack--from any year?? I mean that's why you want to buy rack packs-- because it is the BEST chance of getting hi grade cards. It's impossible that this rack was original with the poor quality cards that came out
One thing that really threw me, however, was the condition of the cellophane. The cellophane on this rack was clearly brittle, seemingly aged appropriately, and had that '71 rack cellophane "look". In order to fabricate a passable pre-'76 rack (in 1977 Topps started to use a different type of cellophane to package their racks--they look newer and shinier than prior years and is lighter) -- you would have to have passable cellophane to package it. The rack I just ripped had that cellophane. In fact many of the card header racks I have seen, as well as my other 2, have that same cellophane "old rack" look. Could it be that these were made way back in the day using the same cellophane so they are now aged appropriately and therefore look legit??
Although there is no doubt that this particular rack was not a Topps factory issued one--OK I'll say it--it was a fake--what does that say about the other card header racks? Logically if Steve Hart did say in the past and continues to affirm that '71 player card header racks are legit Topps issued product--then my little experiment means nothing. Except that this guy will not be buying anymore card header racks.
And we will find out soon what he says---and this thread may end up shooting me in the foot -- because I have the other 2 '71 card header racks at BBCE for authentication. It'll be interesting to see what Steve says about them.
Steve--STOP reading this NOW!!!!! LOL
One last point--this of transparency. I was the consignor of the racks that PWCC had in last month's auction. I had all the racks for years and had purchased some of them for over $1K each many years ago. Still looking for the invoices to figure out where I got them--but Mastro/Legendary rings a bell (YIKES NOW -- but who knew back then about them??) Some of you questioned the legitimacy of the '70 racks with Ryan and Clemente and the '71 racks. All I can say is I bought them years ago from THEN respected sources. I never thought them to be anything but legit Topps issued racks. When Brent contacted me about the racks he said he was going to describe them as he did after getting some feedback by board members. I agreed out of concerns by board members and the hobby.
One of the items was a '71 rack with Garvey on back--also GAI slabbed. It has a card header. The PWCC description did note that it was believed not to be a legit Topps issued product. The Garvey rack and another I own-- were obtained from Memory Lane as part of their May 2011 auction (lots 692 and 693). I do not recall the ML description reflagging these racks as possible fakes. Obviously I would not have bought them if they had. In total I paid almost $1,400 for both racks. I believe Steve has lot #692 for authentication, as well as one other header rack I own.
One final note--interestingly, another rack I consigned--the '71 with Bench and Blyleven--has the correct yellow header. Nevertheless others believe it to be a non-legit Topps issued rack for other reasons. Frankly, I do believe that the Bench/Blyeven rack is a legit Topps issued rack-notwithstanding others' comments to the contrary. If I am not mistaken--it was sent to Steve for authentication (along with many other vintage racks) but he was unsure so he did not slab it. He did not say the rack was definitely bad.
Final Final Note on those racks--The Clemente rack was not paid for and is being returned to me by Brent per our agreement. The '71 Bench/Blyleven rack is up now for auction as the 1st winner did not pay--with same disclaimer. Again I believe this particular rack to be legit Topps issued product. The '70 Ryan rack did sell--if whoever bought it is unhappy for any reason (notwithstanding the disclaimer in the description)--I will offer a full refund. Same with whoever got the Garvey rack if they are unhappy.
I did videotape the rip--but cannot seem to load it. I'll try again later.
Hope that you all find this informative
0
Comments
.....and plus one for the Terri Hatcher / Seinfeld reference.
I recall that John opened a 71 rack with a player header card that was definitely legit as the sequence was verified and he pulled a very nice Pete Rose that graded PSA 8 IIRC. That said, I personally avoid 71 racks with the player header card because they do not bear any Topps trademark information, pricing or product codes, so if any were produced by Topps, they definitely weren't done so for retail sale in a store.
Also, it is very difficult to find correct header cards for 71 racks, so it would be easier to fabricate a 71 rack if all you needed instead were a player card. As for the aged cello wrapping on these~older rack packaging is typically reused with a heating element to reseal the seams. All authentic racks from this era of the early 1970s that featured the 54-card count (1970-1973) also bear a wider seam between sections, which Topps used to support the higher card count in these racks. When the card count was lowered to 42 in 1974, the seams between sections became thinner, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
There are plenty of fake racks with the regular header cards out there. In fact there are fake racks and cellos and wax packs from all years.
Clearly sounds like the one you opened may have been fabricated, but again I dont think that leads to the conclusion that all are fabricated.
Some unscrupulous re-sealers may have seen or known there are legitimate 1971 racks with player header cards and then tried to duplicate those efforts.
Does not really make sense why we would not have seen this attempted with 1970 racks or 1972 racks or any other years. Why stop at 1971 racks with player header cards? If it worked for 1971 why not other years. I would guess because 1971 was the only year the resealers could get away with it because perhaps 1971 was the only year there are actually legitimate racks with player header cards. Of course who knows.
What I suspect is that there are indeed legitimate 1971 racks with player header cards out there. But there are also a number of fake ones as it seemed like an easy target to try and replicate given the fabricators/resealers didnt need to track down header cards.
Perhaps only certain series are legitimate in 1971? Did Topps issue multi series regular header rack packs?
I know others have cracked open 1971 player header card racks and pulled mint cards. I think as mentioned someone pulled a Rose that graded out a 9?
Perhaps there are others of us with 1971 racks with player header cards who may be tempted to rip them now. I think more rips could lead to better conclusion. One fake rack doesnt mean all are fakes does it?
<< <i> In fact only 1 card #'d in the 200s, 33 cards #'d in the 300s, 24 cards #'d in the 400s, and 5 cards #'d in the 500s. >>
If my math is correct, 1+33+24+5=63; I thought you said there were only 52 cards in the rack?????
That was an awesome post!
I actually bought a 1st series "player" (non-Yellow) header card rack from BBCE back in 2012 and ripped it. I have only submitted
3 cards from it so far, and these were the results:
3 1 2064xxxx NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 Topps 26 Bert Blyleven Card
9 1 2378xxxx NEAR MINT-MINT+ 8.5 1971 Topps 30 Phil Niekro Card
10 1 2378xxxx NEAR MINT-MINT 8 1971 Topps 45 Jim Hunter Card
I still agree with Steve that the player (non-Yellow) header card racks for 1971 are valid, but I certainly believe that there are probably
some fabricated racks that were made to look like them too.
As for the 1971 Blyleven/Bench rack and the 1970 racks I am fairly certain that Topps did not start using the "cross-hatched"
yellow header cards prior to 1971 series 4. Prior to that it was always the large, die-cut circle cut-out used as the place to put
the pack onto the rack.
The rack pictured below is one I got from BBCE in 2012. It had previously been auctioned a few times by some of the major AH's
in the 2005-2008 timeframe. As much as I love this rack, that cross-hatched header card done not belong there. Steve has
re-checked it and feels now that it is not authentic (and has told me that he is willing to take it back at any time for a full refund...
given my obsession with the 1970 Topps BB set and what I have put together in terms of my registry set and the unopened
material for that year I still feel like keeping it for now in hopes that a miracle happens and we get some ironclad proof that
maybe there was some cross-hatched experimentation by Topps going on prior to 1971 series 4).
ADDED: Even if the source of these racks are a trusted auction house that is offering them, all of them admit that they are
accepting the item into their auctions based on the authentication provided by the third-party grader and that all have
robust disclaimers that remove them from any liability if an authenticated/graded items turns out to be illegitimate. Remember
the 1975 rack a few years ago with both Brett and Yount showing on the front, but the Brett card (I think) was in the outer-most
"cell" instead of the one next to the header card where (based on the cutting collations for 1975 racks) it has to be located?
This segment is always going to be a challenging one in the hobby. Steve's expert opinion is one I trust, and when additional
provenance is available (e.g. Topps vault, Fritsch, etc.) I think it certainly justifies a solid premium.
Dave
22 cards in the 300s--
24 in the 400s
would like to enter in to evidence, marked exhibit a:
it also has a crease...does the crease run the same way as the cards in your rack?
it also appears to be cut short on the bottom?
did you take a close up of shot of the seams to compare to these?
would topps have sold off rejected cards in bulk, either prior or post 71 that is general knowledge?
your header card doesn't appear to be punched and has more of a diamond shape vs this completely punched thru and circular hole?
speaking of the crease and the hole, the crease goes right thru it. perhaps someone who was stocking it, missed the rack and creased the card? or just another fabrication to appear genuine?
again, i don't have a dog in this fight. picked this up a year or so ago for $10 b/c i simply thought it was unique...
hopefully this puzzle piece helps:
Around 2000/2001 I obtained 2 first series raks with a player as the header card but they have punched holes NOT cross hatched holes.
In typically Moran fashion I opened the one below for research. Have to find my notes but the first section cards came from the left half of the 264 card sheet in the 'expected" sequence and that sequence ran 19 cards deep. Most of the cards were mint but OC and included a Pete Rose that graded PSA 9 OC. The middle section contained 18 cards than ran in the correct sequence from the right half of the 264 card uncut sheet. From memory the majority of these 18 cards graded PSA 8. The 3rd section contained 18 cards but flopped between the two half sheets. This section included another Pete Rose that graded PSA 8.
When gemint opened his 1st series rak with a yellow header card about a year or so ago his 3 sections followed this exact same pattern. Based on all that I am positive there are legit raks with a player as the header.
John
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
I've shared with a few here being a large show in the 80s where a prominent dealer had an entire table full of 71 player header racks. At first glace, I was like wow, 4 sections of cards, then a closer look showed what they were. I bought one pack as I was on a sharp clemente kick. Didn't catch one, but the cards were stunning and there were stars present, so I have always thought/believed there were good versions of these too.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Fun read, thanks for the post.
Am I the only one who while quickly scanning thread titles thought it said "baby back ribs"?