FASC premium
galaxy27
Posts: 8,147 ✭✭✭✭✭
I decided to take the most recent discussion over in the PWCC & eBay thread and parlay it into its own. Undoubtedly, there are number of variables involved that prevent this from becoming an exact science (e.g., supply, demand, age....just to name a few), but I'd like to know what you guys think about the premium between "generic" boxes and those FASC moving forward. Percentages have been bandied about since the unopened explosion, but with the proliferation of boxes with Steve's stamp of approval due to the service he provides, I can't help but think that the gap is going to widen in the future.
Case in point: Just a couple of years ago I'd regularly type 'BBCE' into the search bar on eBay and connect on <10 listings; fast forward to a few minutes ago and almost 300 stared me in the face. Of those, a grand total of 12 were unopened items (boxes & trays) that came directly from a sealed case.
Thoughts?
Case in point: Just a couple of years ago I'd regularly type 'BBCE' into the search bar on eBay and connect on <10 listings; fast forward to a few minutes ago and almost 300 stared me in the face. Of those, a grand total of 12 were unopened items (boxes & trays) that came directly from a sealed case.
Thoughts?
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
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Comments
Sometimes they put "from full box" for packs on the holders as well.
I would pay a little more for nice looking packs vs torn ones but with box wrapping, packs are not seen.
ETA: I would think the premium would vary depending on the difficulty of finding an actual case of the product. For instance a 1986 Fleer Baseball wax box labeled FASC may carry a marginal premium if any because both boxes and cases are plentiful, but a 1986 Fleer Basketball wax box labeled FASC would probably carry a significant premium both because of the rarity of the case itself and also because you would know you have an unhandled/unsearched box.
In general though, if we are talking about late 70's or 80's FB and BB unopened products I could easily see a 10%-30% premium being attached to the FASC label, again depending on the type of unopened (rack, cello or wax) and the rarity of the product (1978 FB vs. 1985 BB).
The reason a FASC box is more desirable is because basically all shenanigans are eliminated from a FASC box. As where just authenticated basically covers all shenanigans except the evil doer who will open packs from a box, once he finds the main card or cards he takes the rest of the unopened packs & puts them in a box. He will continue this until he has a complete box, but in actuality, the box has a much more reduced chance of having the main cards.
Is that correct?
<< <i>Just to clarify & make sure I have this correct:
The reason a FASC box is more desirable is because basically all shenanigans are eliminated from a FASC box. As where just authenticated basically covers all shenanigans except the evil doer who will open packs from a box, once he finds the main card or cards he takes the rest of the unopened packs & puts them in a box. He will continue this until he has a complete box, but in actuality, the box has a much more reduced chance of having the main cards.
Is that correct? >>
That is the main concern, though for me, as a ripper, at least, it would be more about centering than what cards may be left in the packs, as collation, for vintage baseball, at least, can vary wildly from box to box, and if you are fortunate enough to encounter a centered box, you're not going to stop opening packs just because you pull a key card.
I think that the FASC premium should vary depending on the year, with pre-1981 boxes carrying a larger premium than boxes from 81 or later, as cases for those years are not nearly as scarce.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
to support the authenticity and history of such material definitely justify some form of premium relative to similar
items that lack such provenance.
FASC is just one form of provenance. Buying 70s unopened material from Fritsch is another form of provenance
because it is well known that their inventory was purchased directly from Topps back in the day and has not
been transferred to others since Larry's original purchase.
I would also say that condition of unopened also plays a part in whether or not a premium should apply. Items
which were uncirculated tend to be in better shape than similar items that were spared from the retail/distribution
channels. Any material information that provides reasonable evidence that something is uncirculated is definitely
something that should support a premium valuation.
As to determining how big the premiums should be, that's more of a black art than a science. Many factors could
go into that effort starting with things like total population, relative scarcity, generation of the material, content
of the material, etc.
Dave
<< <i>
FASC is just one form of provenance. Buying 70s unopened material from Fritsch is another form of provenance
because it is well known that their inventory was purchased directly from Topps back in the day and has not
been transferred to others since Larry's original purchase.
. >>
Is there any proof that Frisch never searched their boxes? I see many packs from their sweet spot on the market with stars on top. were the boxes backfilled? We will probably never know for sure.
So all that being said, I feel the FASC (or FASB) designation should carry a HUGE premium at all times. If I suddenly felt the urge to delve into unopened boxes, I would only purchased FASC. I know this would limit what I would be able to purchase, but at least I know the stuff inside the box is legit.
PS - A while back, I purchased a cello from "Jose" before I knew who he was - PSA9 cert number 19792138. Jerry Rice on Top/Steve Young on bottom. If you look up cert numbers 19792116 thru 19792138, you will see that they are all cellos with stars on top. My opinion is all of these cello's are probably "Jose" packs.
PPSS - I have and will continue to purchase from BBCE and PSA. They are the best at what they do.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
<< <i>
<< <i>
FASC is just one form of provenance. Buying 70s unopened material from Fritsch is another form of provenance
because it is well known that their inventory was purchased directly from Topps back in the day and has not
been transferred to others since Larry's original purchase.
. >>
Is there any proof that Frisch never searched their boxes? I see many packs from their sweet spot on the market with stars on top. were the boxes backfilled? We will probably never know for sure. >>
+ 1
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
FASC is just one form of provenance. Buying 70s unopened material from Fritsch is another form of provenance
because it is well known that their inventory was purchased directly from Topps back in the day and has not
been transferred to others since Larry's original purchase.
. >>
Is there any proof that Frisch never searched their boxes? I see many packs from their sweet spot on the market with stars on top. were the boxes backfilled? We will probably never know for sure. >>
+ 1 >>
No one will ever be able to say either way for sure other than people at the company. However,
what is beyond any doubt is that, at least at a pack level, their inventory is considered to be "factory"
issued (not messed with).
From a box collation standpoint, there really was no box collation going in in those days. Therefore
a box buyer back then could not expect to get any particular cards versus any others in a single box.
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>
FASC is just one form of provenance. Buying 70s unopened material from Fritsch is another form of provenance
because it is well known that their inventory was purchased directly from Topps back in the day and has not
been transferred to others since Larry's original purchase.
. >>
Is there any proof that Frisch never searched their boxes? I see many packs from their sweet spot on the market with stars on top. were the boxes backfilled? We will probably never know for sure. >>
Frisch doesn't search their packs... they have star packs, but you'll find more graded packs from them with commons on them. I've purchased many raw packs from them over the years (not so much in the last 3 or 4 years) and they clearly hadn't been sequenced or searched. That being said, you won't be buying an unopened vintage box from them directly-- that's always been the problem with them (along with their prices)-- you'll have to get them at auction when they consign them.
<< <i>I do not buy unopened wax or cello boxes so my question is, why would anyone buy anything but a FASC BBCE sealed box? Topps didn't seal vintage boxes except for maybe a piece of tape. If you are buying a non FASC BBCE sealed box, you are taking 1 person's word (there are over 300 million people in this country) that the box is legit. There is a lot of BBCE sealed stuff out there now - what are the odds that they have been correct 100 percent of the time in determining authenticity? I think that would be too much to ask. Its a fact that the person known on these boards as "Jose" fooled all the hobby's unopened experts with his fake stuff so I guess what I am trying to say here is that no one should be expected to be perfect when there are people out there absolutely determined to get over on you.
So all that being said, I feel the FASC (or FASB) designation should carry aa HUGE premium at all times. If I suddenly felt the urge to delve into unopened boxes, I would only purchased FASC. I know this would limit what I would be able to purchase, but at least I know the stuff inside the box is legit.
PS - A while back, I purchased a cello from "Jose" before I knew who he was - PSA9 cert number 19792138. Jerry Rice on Top/Steve Young on bottom. If you look up cert numbers 19792116 thru 19792138, you will see that they are all cellos with stars on top. My opinion is all of these cello's are probably "Jose" packs. >>
That's why I said that provenance is what the premium is paid for. There are many forms of provenance besides FASC. The point is that the better the provenance shows that the item is not tampered with, the higher the premium should be.
Dave
<< <i>I do not buy unopened wax or cello boxes so my question is, why would anyone buy anything but a FASC BBCE sealed box? Topps didn't seal vintage boxes except for maybe a piece of tape. If you are buying a non FASC BBCE sealed box, you are taking 1 person's word (there are over 300 million people in this country) that the box is legit. There is a lot of BBCE sealed stuff out there now - what are the odds that they have been correct 100 percent of the time in determining authenticity? I think that would be too much to ask. Its a fact that the person known on these boards as "Jose" fooled all the hobby's unopened experts with his fake stuff so I guess what I am trying to say here is that no one should be expected to be perfect when there are people out there absolutely determined to get over on you.
So all that being said, I feel the FASC (or FASB) designation should carry aa HUGE premium at all times. If I suddenly felt the urge to delve into unopened boxes, I would only purchased FASC. I know this would limit what I would be able to purchase, but at least I know the stuff inside the box is legit.
PS - A while back, I purchased a cello from "Jose" before I knew who he was - PSA9 cert number 19792138. Jerry Rice on Top/Steve Young on bottom. If you look up cert numbers 19792116 thru 19792138, you will see that they are all cellos with stars on top. My opinion is all of these cello's are probably "Jose" packs. >>
Maybe we should kill this thread before Steve gets any ideas...
<< <i>I do not buy unopened wax or cello boxes so my question is, why would anyone buy anything but a FASC BBCE sealed box? >>
You'd be surprised at how many case fresh, pristine boxes from the late 70s through mid 80s, that are totally legit and can be had for a very good price, are out there. Doing research, gaining knowledge and experience, and knowing who you're buying from will go a long way in getting you some good unopened deals... be sure to send them to Steve, just to make sure!
But I'm with others... pre-81 FASC carries the most premium, but even then I only consider it a small premium. If something isn't FASC, then I'd actually rather be able to see the individual packs when purchasing the box.
Take a look at this listing on eBay: '70 Robby cello
Then compare it to the website: Same pack
On eBay, the description states that "This pack was bought directly by us from Topps in 1970 and we have been the only owner." Conversely, on the Fritsch website it says "Recently we were able to obtain some great unopened packs from the 1960s and 1970s." Same holds true for every other high-dollar pack being sold. Now, either there's a fairly sizable oversight in play here, or something is amiss. Whatever the case may be, when I ran across this discrepancy I remember taking my hand off the mouse on a 5X eBay bucks day.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
their own website. Of course, if they weren't so unwilling to give straight answers to people
who call with questions then it might be easier to not need to ask questions.
The Fritsch inventory of 1970 cellos was predominantly for series 2 and series 6 packs the last
5 years, so it would seem that either they haven't really started on the series 5 material that they
have or they really don't have much series 5 material at all.
As for this particular pack, it's been sitting out there at this price for quite a while.
Dave
<< <i>More than likely its just inconsistency in the way they market things on eBay versus
their own website. Of course, if they weren't so unwilling to give straight answers to people
who call with questions then it might be easier to not need to ask questions. >>
It's perplexing. If I were the sole owner of packs over four decades old, I'd be shouting that fact from the rooftops -- even if they were graded. On eBay, on a company website, in my sleep, wouldn't matter. Ironclad provenance = dinero, last I checked.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
If you're buying something FASC from BBCE then I think the strongest premium can apply.
If you're buying something FASC from someone else, well, they may have already figured out how good the quality is of the contents of the item and are therefore trying to unload a lemon.
What this premium is is ultimately up to the buyer. And some buyers will not even buy unless it's FASC. This is sometimes the case with vending boxes, which, I believe BBCE only sells if they are FASC.
Robb
<< <i>
<< <i>More than likely its just inconsistency in the way they market things on eBay versus
their own website. Of course, if they weren't so unwilling to give straight answers to people
who call with questions then it might be easier to not need to ask questions. >>
It's perplexing. If I were the sole owner of packs over four decades old, I'd be shouting that fact from the rooftops -- even if they were graded. On eBay, on a company website, in my sleep, wouldn't matter. Ironclad provenance = dinero, last I checked. >>
There's no incentive for them to blow through their entire inventory at 2015 prices, especially if you believe prices will continue to rise. If they are wanting to help ensure their business survives another couple generations, they'll slowly release some each year to constantly get current market value. I just think they should come out and say that... set limits or stop listing certain stuff and add it to their AH consignments.
<< <i>There's no incentive for them to blow through their entire inventory at 2015 prices, especially if you believe prices will continue to rise. If they are wanting to help ensure their business survives another couple generations, they'll slowly release some each year to constantly get current market value. I just think they should come out and say that... set limits or stop listing certain stuff and add it to their AH consignments. >>
If milking the stash for generations to come is indeed the business plan, then yeah, I can think of more judicious ways to go about it than emitting enough smoke screens to choke a potential customer. Namely, not allowing items to breathe open market air until they're fully prepared to......wait for it......provide answers to what, how many, how much, and, if applicable, where.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>Bbce has a 1984 donruss ...let's split it. >>
They gave a lot of group breakable 81-85 stuff. Does anyone understand the description on the 1981 topps bb case?
<< <i>
<< <i>Bbce has a 1984 donruss ...let's split it. >>
They gave a lot of group breakable 81-85 stuff. Does anyone understand the description on the 1981 topps bb case? >>
The case is open but boxes are very clean, with no x-outs on the lids (I have never seen 81 baseball wax boxes with an x-out anyway) and in Steve's opinion are the original 20 boxes to the case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Bbce has a 1984 donruss ...let's split it. >>
They gave a lot of group breakable 81-85 stuff. Does anyone understand the description on the 1981 topps bb case? >>
The case is open but boxes are very clean, with no x-outs on the lids (I have never seen 81 baseball wax boxes with an x-out anyway) and in Steve's opinion are the original 20 boxes to the case. >>
I'm not sure why my feeble brain couldn't have come up with that. I was thinking these were the first 20 boxes produced for 81 bb.
<< <i>I decided to take the most recent discussion over in the PWCC & eBay thread and parlay it into its own. Undoubtedly, there are number of variables involved that prevent this from becoming an exact science (e.g., supply, demand, age....just to name a few), but I'd like to know what you guys think about the premium between "generic" boxes and those FASC moving forward. Percentages have been bandied about since the unopened explosion, but with the proliferation of boxes with Steve's stamp of approval due to the service he provides, I can't help but think that the gap is going to widen in the future.
Case in point: Just a couple of years ago I'd regularly type 'BBCE' into the search bar on eBay and connect on <10 listings; fast forward to a few minutes ago and almost 300 stared me in the face. Of those, a grand total of 12 were unopened items (boxes & trays) that came directly from a sealed case.
Thoughts? >>
For me, most of what I have in my collection was acquired before "FASC" became the flavor of the day. So I bought based on provenance of the item and learned to examine the packs myself as well. Based on my personal collection, I sent all my 1980 and prior wax boxes to be double checked and sealed by BBCE when he started offering that service. However, none of my cello or rack boxes are sealed unless I bought them directly BBCE and resisted the temptation to rip them open to check out the packs inside. A wrapped cello or rack box is for the most part very generic and I enjoy looking at the packs as an unopened collector.
To get back to Stephen's question, I would put a premium on the "FASC" designation, but not as high as some other people might as there would be a price point where I would use my knowledge of unopened to get a good deal on a product. Come to think of it, you should all only buy "FASC" and I'll pick up all the searched boxes to take them out of circulation.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.