I'M SO CONFUSED......

rogerdiehl

I'm sure some people will pile on me for this one again......

Subject: The New Extra Points Give Away Rules....

Did anyone understand this and do you agree ???

1. For Basic Registry Sets. Base and First Strike PCGS #'s are combined and the extra points go to the folks with the highest grade (regardless if there is one (2 points) or 100+ (1 point).

2. For Major and Complete Registry Sets. System is completely different. Base and First Strike PCGS #'s are NOT combined. They are granted extra points independent of one another. The top non-First Strike coin(s) get extra points. The top First Strike coin(s) get extra points.

If you have a non-First Strike, MS-67 that is the top pop of the non-First Strikes - you get extra points.
If you have a First Strike, MS-68 of the same coin, that is the top pop of the First Strikes, you get extra points.

Question - does the First Strike, MS-67's (same exact coin as the non-First Strike) get extra points ---- NO

So, what you do is send it back to PCGS for a regrade and tell them to drop the First Strike label - no you get an extra point - Right ????

I'm only kidding about that last sentence.....

Steve

I can fully understand your frustration, but the facts are this new wrinkle in the Set Registry scoring is partially to help sell PCGS labels. The so called "First Strike" labels were begun just a few years ago for the sole purpose of adding "value" to current issue modern coins when NO actual extra value exists. NGC did the same thing. Now, we collectors of current issues of Lincoln's, Jefferson's, Roosevelt's, Washington's, Kennedy's and dollars have to wait three months or so AFTER the US Mint starts producing each new year coin until the so called First Strike and Birth Year labels are sold thru dealers BEFORE the standard or basic blue label can be marketed. The result has been a significant reduction in total sales of these combined labels versus what PCGS & NGC sold before 2010. The Set Registry concept is great but unfortunately the competitive nature of trying to be "number one" instead of just enjoying the FUN of collecting the coins spoils it for some folks. JMHO. Steve

DrPete

I've just noticed that two new columns display in set listings. There are the columns previously shown for number in grade and number finer. Now to the right of these are additional columns with Total graded and Total finer. When I look at my set, all the numbers are identical for columns 1 and 3, and again for 2 and 4. Anyone know why these extra columns are there? Also, I do like the back highlighting with color of coins in the sets that are single finest or tied for finest. Lots of changes going on with the registry sets. My favorite in the last year has to be the virtual coin albums with display of the digital images.

LindeDad

Simple First Strike is free for bulk submitters which also happen to be mostly PCGS authorized dealers.

cointime

DrPete,
My thoughts on the 2 extra columns would be to show the separate pops for the parent coin# pop. Just in case you add a variety with a pop of 1, the system would look at the parent pop and not award the 2 point advantage.

rogerdiehl

Proof that PCGS management have no idea what they are doing when it comes to registry set management.

Wondercoin pay attention :-)
If you send your 1934, #5793 MS67+ in for a cheap regrade and have it put into a newer 146002 1934 slab at the same grade, you will be TOP POP and receive 2 extra points.

Set Registry U.S. Coins - Quarters Washington Quarters Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes (1932-1964)
Looking at the #1 Phillips Collection

This set has:

1934 Medium Motto 25C MS67 (take a look)

There are 90 MS67's and 11 better.

In this case though, his MS67 is considered the one and only TOP POP and receives 2 extra bonus points.

So why does his MS67 get the extra points? His MS67 is a newer PCGS #146002 slabbed coin. The other 100 (89 MS67's, 10 MS67+, and 1 MS68) are the older slabbed PCGS #5793.

What extra points do the older slabbed PCGS #5793 coins get ???

The 89 MS-67's get no extra points (same grade as the 146002 Philips coin)
The 10 MS-67+ get no extra points (1/2 grade above the 146002 Philips coin)
The 1 MS-68 gets 2 extra points (one and only TOP POP - same as the 146002 Philips coin)

Yeah....that makes sense - the difference is a cheap regrading fee with a guaranteed outcome.

rogerdiehl

All I'm trying to do is have PCGS understand that for "Major" and "Complete" sets, if the coins are the same coins (like non-FS and FS)- regardless of the PCGS number they have placed on the slab, they need to be considered exactly the same for these bonus points.

If the rules behind the points system aren't based on common sense or are applied sloppily - then you don't have a registry. You have piles.

All they have to do is, given a PCGS # - lookup its base PCGS # and use that number in all calculations - they already are doing that work for the "Total Pop" and "Total Pop Higher" columns - just use that information to determine the bonus points, instead of the "PCGS No. Pop" and PCGS No. Pop Higher".

This isn't just a First Strike problem - as my previous post documents, this problem exists anywhere there is an assignment of multiple PCGS #'s to the exact same coin.

There are places where PCGS will need to change/correct the association of varieties with a different base coin.
One that comes to mind is the associations for the 95820 1943 25C Doubled Die Obverse.
The FS-101 and FS-102 minors shouldn't really be associated with the 95820 major. They should be associated with the 5820 1943 25C.
Only the 145620 25C DDO FS-103 is really a major (according to PCGS).

The 5795 1934 25C Doubled Die Obverse may be another case of that. The 5795 is a Major, but the 5900 1934 25C FS-101 under it is a Minor (even though it is the same coin only newer attribution ???). In this case, I think the category of Minor isn't quite right for the FS-101.

So you shouldn't have a Minor under a Major base coin. Minors should only be under "Year, MintMark" coins. A true Minor of a base Major should also be considered a Major because it has the Major's attributes.

DrPete

DrPete,
My thoughts on the 2 extra columns would be to show the separate pops for the parent coin# pop. Just in case you add a variety with a pop of 1, the system would look at the parent pop and not award the 2 point advantage. Text

That makes sense. It may not be needed for all different kinds of sets, but in order to have it for the ones where it is needed, it may have to be in all.

I would not want the programming job to handle all of this. Wow!

RadioContestKing

Why did PCGS put these Rules in EFFECT BEFORE the June cutofff? If your going to change the rules why not wait untill AFTER the awards?

Our host has not made ONE comment in any of the threads that have been started and this tells me once again they really do not care about 2-whatever sets.

These new rules in Midseason have showed me I will keep collecting my varieties but there is NO reason to buy any of the other coins for my sets.

A new thread in the us coin section asks about If you could start over. My answer is I would have stayed collecting for my albums but would NOT have gone into slabbing coins.

I will always be a collector and will now go back and start filling the albums. I think any newbie who starts a registry set should think twice. jmo Enjoy

wondercoin

RogerDiehl... What a long strange trip it's been! Lol.

I will try to ask BJ to address your comments especially with regard to the 1934 coin example as I certainly am at a loss as to these bonus points. I have paid no attention to them as witnessed by me letting valuable points go by the wayside in your example. Wondercoin.

wondercoin

What I know now...

Basic sets - takes all the coin numbers within a slot and the highest graded coin gets the Top Pop bonus

Variety sets - looks at which coin is registered in the slot and if it is a Top Pop for that coin number it gets the Top Pop bonus

The system is not perfect. In the variety sets, the formula works really well for the classic coins and marginally well for modern coins because of all the labels that have nothing to do with whether the coin is a variety or not. Set registry is looking at ways to modify this for the sets that include classic and modern coins such as the to-date Washington quarters.

Wondercoin

rogerdiehl

Sweet. "Set registry is looking at ways to modify this for the sets that include classic and modern coins such as the to-date Washington quarters."

We can't ask for more than that :-)

It appears that they have most of the answer if they look at the logic they use for calculating the "Total Pop" and "Total Pop Higher" columns.

Thanks,
Roger

Neca63

The old school advice of buying the coin and not the slab extends to the idea of buying a a more worthwhile and entertaining coin of another series over the completion a registry set full of bullion.

Neca63

One is brought about from the profit of marketing, while the other is created by virtue of the numismatic knowledge of manufacture.

rogerdiehl

For a conclusion go to:

Revised Handling Of Bonus Points For Varieties/Labels