Finding my 1836 CBH in an old Apostrophe catalog

breakdown

Well maybe, anyway. I recently purchased a set of Apostrophe catalogs from CBJesse (thanks for a great transaction!). There is a lot of interesting information in these catalogs like the sale of an 1815-E quarter by RARCOA in the 1990 sale (Lot 639). Okay, I don't see that variety in CoinFacts but Breen does mention it as a counterstamp of possible mint origin (now that seems a stretch).
Anyway, in the 1982 catalog, Lot 754 is an 1836 Lettered edge described as "Golden toned GEM BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED with delightful color. Boldy struck and fully lustrous. Interesting die break behind Miss Liberty's head extending to rim." Well, that last part got my attention and the die break in the b&w photo is a dead ringer for the one in my 1836:



There is no color plate so I suppose it's possible that there are two or more coins of that description with that die break. Now I realize that this post probably belongs in the nerd thread of earlier this week. But I blew my coin budget for the year on Gardner so it's time to spend more time in the library. If anyone has the prices realized for Lot 754, I would appreciate it.

oih82w8

She is a beauty!

BG

Super nice example!

Love the clean cheek.

yosclimber

Pretty coin.

Does the toning pattern in the B&W photo line up with your coin? Then you might be onto a match.

The die break is likely on many coins. It won't change location, but it might be get longer or wider in later die states.
Is it mentioned under die states in a specialized bust half reference book?
[Edited - I saw the quarter reference to in the auction catalog and wrote the wrong denom for this coin, oops]

breakdown

<< <i>Pretty coin.

Does the toning pattern in the B&W photo line up with your coin? Then you might be onto a match.

The die break is likely on many coins. It won't change location, but it might be get longer or wider in later die states.
Is it mentioned under die states in a specialized bust quarter reference book?

Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint 1796 - 1838 by Rea, Peterson, Karoleff, and Kovach
or
Early United States Quarters 1796 - 1838 by Tompkins
http://www.richuhrichcoins.com/category.php?cat=18 >>



Thanks, yoosclimber. the toning patterns are a possible match but it is not entirely clear. i don't have any CBH reference books but I checked CoinFacts and found at least two other examples with the die break,including a 66+(must have been made recently).

yosclimber

Is it O-113?
I don't have a bust half book, either, but there is an online attribution guide:
http://www.coinzip.com/bustieguide/item.php?d=446
However, the online guide does not include the info on die breaks and die states, at least for 1836 O-113.

I don't see a die crack (above the head) mentioned in the details for 1836 O-113 on Dave's site, either. (I might have the attribution wrong).
http://maibockaddict.com/1836-o-113-r2-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml

CBJesse

Truly stunning coin, breakdown! I'm glad you're enjoying the Apostrophe catalogs - your Bust Half fits in nicely with the other spectacular coins in those catalogs. I agree with yosclimber on the attribution: O-113, R-2. It is possibly the later die state: O-113a, R-3, but it is difficult to tell whether all of the prerequisite die cracks are present through the toning. Nevertheless, even if the die crack present on your example (through star 12 to ribbon), is also present on lot 754 of the sale 1982, it is not enough to confirm them as the same example (though there is a strong possibility given the scarcity of 1836 O-113s in Gem BU).

If I were trying to confirm the provenance, I would look to spots of the toning pattern which the years and B&W photograph are unlikely to have obscured. Namely the lighter spots between date numeral "6" and star "13", under the eagle's chin, and beneath the E in AMERICA. Hopefully, you are able to positively ID your coin - quite a fun thing to identify a lost provenance, especially to such a star-studded auction.

Also, in regard to the 1815-E Quarter - the jury is still out as to the who, what, when, and why of its manufacture. Numerous theories have been proposed, ranging from marks indicating excess inedequate weight, to school awards for Latin and English, to voting tokens for the Harmonist community of Economite Hoard fame. Steve Tompkin's Early United States Quarters 1796-1838, pages 351-357 do an excellent job of gathering and assessing the current theories, which are discussed in 12 John Reich Journal articles and are referenced or theorized on, in numerous books - among them: Breen's Encyclopedia, Early Quarter Dollars of the United States Mint by Rea, et. al. and Henry Voigt and Others Involved With America's Early Coinage by Karl Moulton.

Happy reading,
Jesse

CoinZip

Absolutely stunning......








<< <i>Is it O-113?
I don't have a bust half book, either, but there is an online attribution guide:
http://www.coinzip.com/bustieguide/item.php?d=446
However, the online guide does not include the info on die breaks and die states, at least for 1836 O-113.

I don't see a die crack (above the head) mentioned in the details for 1836 O-113 on Dave's site, either. (I might have the attribution wrong).
http://maibockaddict.com/1836-o-113-r2-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml >>




Try this online guide

lordmarcovan

maibockaddict

<< <i>Is it O-113?
I don't have a bust half book, either, but there is an online attribution guide:
http://www.coinzip.com/bustieguide/item.php?d=446
However, the online guide does not include the info on die breaks and die states, at least for 1836 O-113.

I don't see a die crack (above the head) mentioned in the details for 1836 O-113 on Dave's site, either. (I might have the attribution wrong).
http://maibockaddict.com/1836-o-113-r2-capped-bust-half-dollar.shtml >>




113a. You have it right. The die crack is mentioned in the description as well as matching in the photo. There appears to not have been a MS66 sold over the last ten years unless one changed hands under the radar

coinlieutenant

Amazing coin. Pics from the 90s in black and white can be difficult to verify provenance. Good luck!

Walkerfan

That's cool when you find a coin that you own in an old catalog----I've done it before quite a few times. I like your coin, regardless; It has some attractive toning and the surfaces look good.

TopographicOceans

WinLoseWin

breakdown - The Auction '82 coin looks like a different coin. The pattern of the toning and shading can be seen in the picture enough to tell that they do not match. Also your coin looks like a slightly sharper strike in places. Particularly the 1st star behind the head and the borders of the lower reverse.

They are both the same die variety with the same cracks, but I would bet yours is much nicer. The 1982 coin shows $575 in the prices realized (there was no buyers fee in that sale). For comparison, a Coin Dealer Newsletter from 8-27-1982 shows the type bids for MS-60 at $330; MS-63 at $750 and MS-65 at $2,700. Unlikely that a true gem would slip that far through the cracks even in that weak market. Other Bust Halves in the sale called Gem or MS-65 showed $775 to $2,100 in the prices realized.

As far as the counterstamped 1815 and a couple other years of Bust Quarters, I was thinking there was a good article on Karl Moulton's website coincats.com. I thought someone had matched at least one punch showing use as a letter punch on another regular coin design used by the mint. But that site is no longer up. Anyone know what has become of him?

breakdown

<< <i>breakdown - The Auction '82 coin looks like a different coin. The pattern of the toning and shading can be seen in the picture enough to tell that they do not match. Also your coin looks like a slightly sharper strike in places. Particularly the 1st star behind the head and the borders of the lower reverse.

They are both the same die variety with the same cracks, but I would bet yours is much nicer. The 1982 coin shows $575 in the prices realized (there was no buyers fee in that sale). For comparison, a Coin Dealer Newsletter from 8-27-1982 shows the type bids for MS-60 at $330; MS-63 at $750 and MS-65 at $2,700. Unlikely that a true gem would slip that far through the cracks even in that weak market. Other Bust Halves in the sale called Gem or MS-65 showed $775 to $2,100 in the prices realized.

As far as the counterstamped 1815 and a couple other years of Bust Quarters, I was thinking there was a good article on Karl Moulton's website coincats.com. I thought someone had matched at least one punch showing use as a letter punch on another regular coin design used by the mint. But that site is no longer up. Anyone know what has become of him? >>



WinLoseWin,

Thanks for the post. I have grudgingly come to the same conclusion that the coin in the Apostrophe catalog is not mine. The toned cheek in the catalog actually is a pretty good match for at least one coin in CoinFacts with the same die break. Oh well, I will keep digging through these catalogs -- a lot of fun. I think I found my 1851-O half(!) but I won't bore people with that guess.

As for Karl Moulton, I contacted him about some catalogs a while back and he responded. His book on Ford and the Franklin Hoard is a treasure that I really enjoyed reading. Sorry to see his website is down.

yosclimber

Here's a 2014 archive of coincats.com . I don't see an article on the 1815 quarter there, though.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140518111340/http://www.coincats.com/Articles.html

Tookybandit

That half is so beautiful I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for staring at her for too long!

WinLoseWin

Regarding the counterstamped 1815 and 1825 Bust Quarters, I found a 1996 Heritage description that included the info I knew had seen somewhere.

It says "...For more than a century the E and L countermarks on 1815 and 1825 quarters have proved to be one of the greatest mysteries in U.S. numismatics. Numerous theories have been proposed, but until now none have withstood critical analysis. For the past several years Karl Moulton of Coolin, Idaho has studied these enigmatic coins and the possible meaning behind the countermarks. First, their weights do not support the theory that the E and L stand for excessive and light weights. Second, no evidence has ever surfaced that these pieces were given out as school awards for achievement in English and Latin.

It is Karl's contention that the countermarks were carefully placed on the coins as an aid for star and date placement, thus prolonging die life. The letters themselves have no meaning, they were the same letter punches used in the word LIBERTY on cents and half dollars from 1795 and '96..."


Heritage lot link:

1815 E Countermarked Quarter, MS 66/With a Possible Explanation of These Enigmatic Coins



Also if the 1836 Half appeared at auction before with only a black and white photo, the toning pattern near the date might make it fairly identifiable.

Nic

The Apostrophe sales are a great reference. Many coins can be traced.





Your 36 is very pretty.

yosclimber

Thanks, WinLoseWin - very interesting.
It looks like the planned Karl Moulton article on the 1815 quarter counterstamps did not end up in the John Reich Journal after all.
But the auction description appears to describe his findings very well!


<< <i>It is Karl's contention that the countermarks were carefully placed on the coins as an aid for star and date placement, thus prolonging die life. The letters themselves have no meaning, they were the same letter punches used in the word LIBERTY on cents and half dollars from 1795 and '96. The letters were apparently chosen at random. The E countermark on this coin is tilted slightly to the right, and if a line is drawn from the right side of the E to the first 1 in the date, and another drawn from stars 4 to 12, the point where they intersect is where John Reich placed the center dot on the die. Other left-right star pairings can also be drawn off this vertical axis from the E to the 1 in the date, including stars 3 and 13, 5 and 11, 6 and 10, and 7 and 9. In essence, the counterstamped quarters were die trial pieces, struck to help Reich achieve a mathematically balanced strike long before the advent of steam coinage in 1836. The complete findings on these numismatic curiosities including the 1825 E and L counterstamps are due to be published in the next issue of the John Reich Journal, a worthy publication for anyone interested in pre-steam press coinage. >>

breakdown

Nic,
Awesome quarter. Did you find it in an Apostrophe catalog?
On the 1815 counter stamped quarters, I was surprised to see NGC put them in problem-free holders. Particularly when Karl Moulton's research shows these made their first appearance in the marketplace in the 1880s.