While cataloging my Anglo-Saxon coins...

EVillageProwler

... I discovered two coins with noteworthy provenance.

The first coin is from the E. J. Winstanley Collection, formerly from the Tetney Hoard (Lincolnshire, 1945). The late Mr. Winstanley was most famous for doing research on the coinage of Henry VII, who co-authored an important treatise with W. J. W. Potter in the early 1960's. This Eadwig penny (S-1122; York; moneyer, Heregar) was obviously not part of his research, but it is still nice to know.



This second coin is of Edward the Confessor (S-1173; York; moneyer, Hrafn), and used to belong to the Duke of Argyll Collection, which was sold en bloc to Spink in 1949. My coin used to be owned by a real live nobleman.



Anyone else have coins with noteworthy provenance?

OriginalDan

Both killer coins, especially the 2nd!

The ones most special to me are these 8 Reales from the Archer Huntington collection.

NiceCurrency

someone here owns a roman republic piece that John Quincy Adams owned

btw those two coins are spectacular, I have a real tough time reading the inscriptions on these (I'm sure it's something you get used to like the roman imperial inscriptions that can sometimes be blocky) but clearly these are very well preserved specimens

Hussulo

Lovely coins and its always nice when you can trace their provenance.

EVillageProwler

NiceCurrency - a provenance chain that includes J. Q. Adams certainly is cool. On the US side, there was a recent to-do about a Gobrecht dollar that was from the family of President Andrew Jackson. I would give a hen's tooth to own that coin! The story of that ex-Jackson Gob has a happy ending. You can read more about it in the latest edition of the Gob Journal. There is at least one thread about it in the US section of this message board. And, one of our own (on the US side) played a prominent role in the happy ending.

As for reading the inscriptions, I was given a short but highly instructional primer by one of our own. If you want to practice, just post the coin with nice pics and tell us what you think you've made out in the legend and we'll help figure out the rest.

Dan - with all due respect to the wonderful coins in your collection, I am not a big fan of the Huntington pedigree. It's not that he didn't have good, or great, coins but that he had so much volume. He bought everything, and wasn't particularly discriminating. In British circles, the sale of the R. C. Lockett collection was billed by Glendining's as "the greatest collection", and auctioned off in the mid-1950's. But, like Huntington, Lockett also had a huge collection. It was so big that they had bulk lots as part of the regular sale. The Newman pedigree is a head-scratcher for me. I have many of his coins, and in fact I got them specifically for his pedigree. But, like the other two collectors, his collection was vast. But Newman was also discriminating and was always trying to tread a fine line between quality and value. He had (has?) been collecting for so long that of course his collection was vast. Eliasberg was purely a price buyer who lucked out into greatness. Pogue and Terner were discriminating buyers of quality.

I own (or owned) coins whose provenance chain includes Newman, Lockett and Terner but I don't mention them because too recent (Newman), or not Anglo-Saxon (and too recent: Terner), or not a big deal IMO (Lockett). I also own a US coin from the Eliasberg collection (a Trade Dollar that is one-sided PL!), but that's OT for this thread.

One day, I will respect the OriginalDan pedigree because I know he's a discriminating buyer of quality.

[Just remembered that I also own a coin from the Huntington collection, a Carlino from 15th century Naples. I also have the museum display tag.]

Hussulo - thanks.

EVP

Zohar

I have a nice ex Museum piece and a Pittman piece. Nothing beyond. I am waiting for an EVP piece to add to my set.

EVillageProwler

<< <i>I have a nice ex Museum piece and a Pittman piece. Nothing beyond. I am waiting for an EVP piece to add to my set. >>



I own a coin whose provenance chain includes our esteemed Zohar. But, to be totally accurate, he only owned it for a very brief period. That coin is one of three that I own that came from Greg Margulies' personal collection (not his stuff for inventory).

EVP

OriginalDan

<< <i>Dan - with all due respect to the wonderful coins in your collection, I am not a big fan of the Huntington pedigree. It's not that he didn't have good, or great, coins but that he had so much volume. He bought everything, and wasn't particularly discriminating. In British circles, the sale of the R. C. Lockett collection was billed by Glendining's as "the greatest collection", and auctioned off in the mid-1950's. But, like Huntington, Lockett also had a huge collection. It was so big that they had bulk lots as part of the regular sale. The Newman pedigree is a head-scratcher for me. I have many of his coins, and in fact I got them specifically for his pedigree. But, like the other two collectors, his collection was vast. But Newman was also discriminating and was always trying to tread a fine line between quality and value. He had (has?) been collecting for so long that of course his collection was vast. Eliasberg was purely a price buyer who lucked out into greatness. Pogue and Terner were discriminating buyers of quality.

I own (or owned) coins whose provenance chain includes Newman, Lockett and Terner but I don't mention them because too recent (Newman), or not Anglo-Saxon (and too recent: Terner), or not a big deal IMO (Lockett). I also own a US coin from the Eliasberg collection (a Trade Dollar that is one-sided PL!), but that's OT for this thread.

One day, I will respect the OriginalDan pedigree because I know he's a discriminating buyer of quality.

[Just remembered that I also own a coin from the Huntington collection, a Carlino from 15th century Naples. I also have the museum display tag.]

EVP >>



EVP that's a really interesting viewpoint, one that I hadn't considered (as a negative). We could start a whole new thread on this topic - what makes a pedigree special to each of us?

I like the Huntington coins in my collection because of who he was as a historian, because they sat in a museum for about a century, and despite what I've been able to assemble with the help of some really sharp eyes, coins of this quality in the Mo portrait series are really, really hard to find.

Pedigree of a discriminating numismatist with a high standard for quality will certainly give you warm fuzzies about your purchase, but take the Newman/Green coins for example, they were sold for 50-100% above market in many cases. To me, that cancels out the benefits of the "higher quality" pedigree. On the other hand, a vast collection may not be as high quality across the board, but still just as fun to own.

The one EVP pedigree coin in my collection is truly a special piece - very high quality, a one of a kind. Boy are they scarce, that guy really has strong hands

EVillageProwler

Dan,

I have no problem with my thread evolving to discuss what makes a pedigree special to each of us as individuals. Bring it on!

Expressing my opinions only, I like a pedigree that suggests greatness of the collection and specialness of the coins in the collection. As numismatists, both Newman and Huntington have my respect. In that regard, a coin with that pedigree is nice. But that's a reflection about the owner, not the coin. Each coin in the two collections can be great, good or just meh. Then there are folks like Terner and Pogue, who undoubtedly loved their coins but are otherwise no greater numismatists than many of us here. They just have the resources to build a super high-quality collection. So, a coin with a Terner or Pogue pedigree is assumed to be special.

And, it isn't lost on me that there are other permutations in this discussion: e.g., noteworthy numismatists with good but not great collections, or good (but not noteworthy) numismatists with good specialized collections, or a noteworthy numismatist with a great collection, or ...

I chose to present the Winstanley and Argyll pedigrees because I felt that they suggested the coins were in some way special by virtue of the selectivity of the two men.

EVP

WillieBoyd2

A Duke of Argyll coin showed up on the television show "Pawn Stars" in July 2014:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=922887

It was an Anglo-Viking (Danish East Anglia) Circa 895-910 AR Penny, Moneyer Gisalca

worldcoinguy

Provenance is the icing on the cake for a collectible coin. I find the old handwritten inserts to be fascinating. Unfortunately, I do not have much to offer in terms of provenance other than a Paderborn taler from the Hesselgesser collection. I am holding onto the belief that my Zohar pieces and Margulies pieces will be the bee's knees.

OriginalDan

<< <i>Dan,

I have no problem with my thread evolving to discuss what makes a pedigree special to each of us as individuals. Bring it on!

Expressing my opinions only, I like a pedigree that suggests greatness of the collection and specialness of the coins in the collection. As numismatists, both Newman and Huntington have my respect. In that regard, a coin with that pedigree is nice. But that's a reflection about the owner, not the coin. Each coin in the two collections can be great, good or just meh. Then there are folks like Terner and Pogue, who undoubtedly loved their coins but are otherwise no greater numismatists than many of us here. They just have the resources to build a super high-quality collection. So, a coin with a Terner or Pogue pedigree is assumed to be special.

And, it isn't lost on me that there are other permutations in this discussion: e.g., noteworthy numismatists with good but not great collections, or good (but not noteworthy) numismatists with good specialized collections, or a noteworthy numismatist with a great collection, or ...

I chose to present the Winstanley and Argyll pedigrees because I felt that they suggested the coins were in some way special by virtue of the selectivity of the two men.

EVP >>



I basically agree with what you've said here. It boils down to personal preference and what we individually value in a pedigree. Interesting discussion topic.

EVillageProwler

<< <i>Provenance is the icing on the cake for a collectible coin. I find the old handwritten inserts to be fascinating. Unfortunately, I do not have much to offer in terms of provenance other than a Paderborn taler from the Hesselgesser collection. I am holding onto the belief that my Zohar pieces and Margulies pieces will be the bee's knees. >>



The Hesselgesser Collection of Early US Dollars were a mixed bag of high-grade/high-value coins, some quite nice for the grade and others deriving a lot of extra value from the plastic. His world crowns, however, seemed to me to be a different story since the market is different and the coins largely sold for a value not strongly tied to the plastic. As far as I can recollect, his world crowns were good stuff.

I'd be careful about ex Zohar and ex Margulies pieces. And, I mean no disrespect to either of the two individuals (especially Zohar; Greg doesn't read here often and probably won't see my comment!)...

Zohar, like any collector, will start out a series immaturely because he's learning as he goes along. He'll buy lower-priced pieces, in slabs, to ease his education curve. So, it really depends on which version of Zohar bought that coin. BTW, I am also guilty of buying as I learn. It's hard to "buy the book" before "buying the coin" because many of us are addicts...

Greg, on the other hand, wears two hats. He is a collector as well as a dealer. The coins he sells from his personal collection are, on average, superb. The coins from his inventory are just coins from which he feels he can make money. I have three (correction: four) coins from Greg's personal collection, and they are all not maxed out TPG grade-wise and they'd be killer coins even if raw. He has two of my coins that I thought I'd never sell, but he caught me in a financial bind, he was cash-rich at the time, and bought two very nice pieces from me at near full-retail prices. (There's more to the story that will make folks appreciate how nice Greg can be to a friend, but this rings true: a friend in need is a friend indeed!)

EVP

santelia

I have a JJ Pittman piece in my collection, too; in part because we grew up in the same town. The old coin dealers around here were pretty pissed off when he sold the collection at auction rather than through them. One of my tests of dealers, and whether I should trust them, was to ask them if they knew him, and then just listen.....