does anyone care about Lebron passing Michael?
lightningboy
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in Sports Talk
Well Lebron James just passed Michael Jordan for the most playoff games with 30 pts, 5 rbs and 5 assists. Am I the only one who wants to fast forward to 6 NBA Finals, 6 Wins and 6 MVPs? Not that this one is the worst offender, but it just gets ridiculous with all the different stats that are kept on players of all sports.
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Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
As a ABA hoops fan growing up in Denver in the 1960's and 1970's watching the Denver Rockets and later Denver Nuggets play the ABA game with and against Dr. J. George Gervin, Freddy Brown, Moses Malone, Spencer Haywood, George McGuiness, Dan Issel, David Thompson, Artis Gilmore, and countless others, I will always place the good Doctor on the highest pedestal.
Maybe I would have a different opinion if Le Bron, MJ, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Stephan Curry or other similar star would grow a big bushy Afro; wear basketball "Shorts" [that cover your backside only instead of covering your backside, upper legs, knees and half of your lower legs]; and vintage Converse canvas "Chuck Taylor All Stars" sneakers.
<< <i>Call me an old geezer but Le Bron and MJ, gifted though they are, in my mind will never have the style, grace, flair, power, speed and magician like qualities on the basketball court that Julius, Dr. J, Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrving has.
As a ABA hoops fan growing up in Denver in the 1960's and 1970's watching the Denver Rockets and later Denver Nuggets play the ABA game with and against Dr. J. George Gervin, Freddy Brown, Moses Malone, Spencer Haywood, George McGuiness, Dan Issel, David Thompson, Artis Gilmore, and countless others, I will always place the good Doctor on the highest pedestal.
Maybe I would have a different opinion if Le Bron, MJ, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Stephan Curry or other similar star would grow a big bushy Afro; wear basketball "Shorts" [that cover your backside only instead of covering your backside, upper legs, knees and half of your lower legs]; and vintage Converse canvas "Chuck Taylor All Stars" sneakers. >>
This won't mean much to anyone but old geezers like us, but back then if a basketball player took more than two steps without dribbling it was a penalty. They called it "traveling". With that rule in place, basketball was a different game than they play today, and required a fair amount more skill to play. How many points MJ would have scored had he been subject to a traveling rule is not knowable, nor is how many points Dr. J would have scored had he been allowed to take the three and sometimes four steps that MJ routinely took. Both were great at the game they were playing, but they were playing different games.
Erving was good, and as smooth as he was, he still wasn't as good as Jordan. He wasn't as good offensively as Jordan, and he couldn't match Jordan's ability, tenacity, and results on the defensive end.
...and the ABA still wasn't quite as good as the NBA, and certainly not as good as the NBA of the late 80's/early 90's.
However, if you are using Larry Bird as an example of a guy who could thrive in the game of basketball under any set of 'rules', then you have a point. As I grow older and older, it gets clearer and clearer that Bird may have been the greatest, even better than Jordan. The 'traveling' rule is just another thing that makes that even more true. Bird would be the great superstar in any era, with any set of rules that may have been used. I'm not sure I can say that for guys like Jordan, Erving, Lebron, Magic, etc...
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I did say that Bird would be the GREATEST superstar in any era, with any set of rules(or really the enforcement of the actual rules themselves).
It would be interesting to see if they actually enforced the traveling rules how guys like Lebron would fare. Or if they called fouls fairly, or even if they actually called offensive fouls on Lebron. Of course, the NBA wants a singular superstar, so he gets that treatment. It wouldn't be good business to have Lebron fouling out of games, or committing 15 turnovers a game by calling traveling.
The NBA relies on propping up superstars with special treatment to retain their industry...the industry that Larry Bird saved/built by GENUINELY being the greatest basketball player.
<< <i>I did say that Bird would be the GREATEST superstar in any era, with any set of rules(or really the enforcement of the actual rules themselves). >>
Many think he's not even the best player on his rookie card. Even Bill "The Boston Sports Guy" Simmons thinks Magic was better.
<< <i>It wouldn't be good business to have Lebron fouling out of games, or committing 15 turnovers a game by calling traveling. >>
If they started to call traveling, he would adjust. It's not that difficult.
Had that debate about Magic already. Magic was too subpar of an outside shooter for the majority of his career, and only developed his post game later too. Bird had all of that his whole career, and was so much better a shooter and scorer. There is nothing that Magic could do that Bird couldn't do either. Can't say that the other way around. Bird could even run the floor on fast breaks as well(though he didnt really need to that often) Bird was just as good a passer too, and WAS better at playing the team game, especially in the half court set.
People bring up rings as their criteria for Magic, but the reality is, Magic had the best supporting cast, so he should have won more. He also had the weaker conference, so again, he should have won more with an easier road.
You made a comment about Bird possibly not even being the best player on his own rookie card(which is wrong)....but Magic wasn't even the best player on his own team for his first five years or so...that was Jabbar. Jabbar was the guy they always went to at the end of the game in crunch time, not Magic. I repeat, Magic wasn't even the go to guy in crunch time on his own team. Sorry, but anyone making the claim as the greatest ever, should have been the MAN when it counted...and Magic wasn't...Jabbar was!
Defensively, Magic guarded the opposing team's weakest scoring threat so he wouldn't have to work and could run the break. That is a big indictment on him compared to Bird.
While Bird player the 76ers in the playoffs, he guarded Julius Erving. When Magic played the Bulls in championship, he guarded John Paxson...AND GOT LIT UP! That is a very telling difference between the two, and coupled with the above points, Bird is easily superior to Magic.
Yes Lebron would have to adjust if they started calling traveling...he would have to adjust and not be able to do some of the things he does now, which would make him a lesser player. Bird wouldn't have to adjust, and his game wouldn't suffer in the least.
Lebron would also have to adjust if they actually started calling fouls on him, especially offensive fouls, where he then wouldn't be able to push and bump people on his way to a basket. He would foul out of games. So yes, Lebron would have to adjust...AND HE WOULDN'T BE AS GOOD!
<< <i>Yes Lebron would have to adjust if they started calling traveling...he would have to adjust and not be able to do some of the things he does now, which would make him a lesser player. Bird wouldn't have to adjust, and his game wouldn't suffer in the least.
>>
Every current player would be a lesser player. They all travel. If Bird played today, he'd travel just like Lebron does now. He's be stupid not to.
<< <i>
Lebron would also have to adjust if they actually started calling fouls on him, especially offensive fouls, where he then wouldn't be able to push and bump people on his way to a basket. He would foul out of games. So yes, Lebron would have to adjust...AND HE WOULDN'T BE AS GOOD! >>
Neither would Bird.
<< <i>
Every current player would be a lesser player. They all travel. If Bird played today, he'd travel just like Lebron does now. He's be stupid not to.
Lebron would also have to adjust if they actually started calling fouls on him, especially offensive fouls, where he then wouldn't be able to push and bump people on his way to a basket. He would foul out of games. So yes, Lebron would have to adjust...AND HE WOULDN'T BE AS GOOD! >>
Neither would Bird. >>
Yes, if Bird added blatant traveling to his game, he would be a BETTER player. Get it? Lebron would be a lesser player without it. Bird would NOT be a lesser player without it. So Lebron is only as great as he is in a game that allows blatant traveling, while Bird is as great a player as he is in a game that actually calls traveling AND in a league that would allow blatant traveling.
Same with fouls. Bird didn't need the help of the refs(and league officials) to 'exempt' him from fouls like Lebron does, thus making Lebron appear better at playing basketball than he really is.
Lebron can bump, push, and foul his way to a basket. Bird didn't have to do that to the degree lebon does. Bird was good enough at scoring and playing basketball without having to. If you call offensive fouls, Lebron wouldn't be as good, while Bird would still be as good. Get it??
So like I said, in conclusion, Lebron would have to adjust and he wouldn't be as good. Bird's game would remain as good as it was regardless if the league complied to the rules or not.
Bird, as great as he was, only played 10 full seasons. Jordan played 13 full seasons, and if you want to talk about his numbers in sabermetric terms, he had six seasons in which his VORP (value over replacement player) exceeded Larry's best season of 8.7. If we're talking scoring average, Larry's best year would only surpass Jordan's tenth best season. Jordan was on the NBA all-defensive first team 9 times, Bird was never a first team selection. The only two things Bird may have had over Jordan are rebounding average, which makes sense, because forwards generally out rebound guards, and 3 point shooting, which is true for the most part, although Jordan's single best year was as good as or better than Larry's, both in percentage and number of threes made (coincidentally, they both had single season highs of .427, but Jordan made twice as many three's as Larry in their respective seasons). I could go on and on, but what shocks me is that no one called you out on this ludicrous statement until now. Does that mean that others are in agreement with you?
<< <i>Bird would be the great superstar in any era, with any set of rules that may have been used. I'm not sure I can say that for guys like Jordan, Erving, Lebron, Magic, etc... >>
Looks like you said you weren't sure if Lebron would be great in any era and with any set of rules. And I asked
if you were kidding.. No biggie just your opinion.
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I wonder if we watch the same games, the ones where I seem to see James getting manhandled quite a bit?? you make it sound as though he knocks people around and no one is allowed to touch him. that isn't even close to accurate. and your traveling argument is absurd. you should try to avoid the hate and watch the games for what they are. each player discussed in this thread has faults but by-and-large they are superior to their contemporaries, it isn't even close.
And I think what is being said about James fouling is correct. He bulldoze's and makes contact which is an offensive foul, but they hardly ever call it.
And on Magic and Jabbar. Jabbar as great as he was......was a one dimensional player. He could score at any time with the sky hook. He was a great scorer.
Magic could play any position and often did when called on......even center! And there was nobody better bring the ball down the floor on a fast break.
Bird Magic Jordan all have their supporters I think a case could be made for any of them . Lebron can certainly play basketball and I'm sure he'd do pretty well however the rules were being enforced.
All the old time guys combined can't match one quality in particular of LeBron . His douchiness , the guy is insufferable . When he talks about himself in the 3rd person its nauseating . He is a massive tool off the court. The perfect version of Le Bron would be the alternate universe example that was born without a voicebox , then I would hail him as the best ever.