Wow unopened rack

rtimmer · May 17, 2015 1:23AM

Blyleven rack

Wow I have been looking for this rack for almost 10 years and it's the first one I've seen. I think is will go for over $1,5000 and I just don't know if I can pull the trigger that high for an ungraded rack. I wish they would have sent this to Steve first. Anyway I'm well bought in to its rarity but I'm interested in what others think this would go for??

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 1:26AM

Shouldn't this have a circular hole punch?

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 1:27AM

The auction states that PWCC believes it to be aftermarket....and it still gets this kind of bids???

rtimmer · May 17, 2015 1:31AM

Yikes good catch I just saw the auction and hadn't read the description. That is a staggering price for that rack then.

grote15 · May 17, 2015 1:37AM

<< Shouldn't this have a circular hole punch? >>

Yes, it should. Topps did not begin using cross-hatch punch hole in header till 4th series in 1971. All 1970 racks should bear large circular punch hole, as well.

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 1:50AM

There are so many GAI certified 1970 and 1971 rack packs that violate this. It's scary, because it calls into question how much expertise those responsible for certifying these racks really ever had. Just do a google search and you'll immediately see at least 5 or 6 such examples.

grote15 · May 17, 2015 1:55AM

The other thing to look for in early 70s racks are the seams between sections~Topps used much wider seams between sections from 1970-1973 to support the higher 54-card count during those years. The card count was changed to 42 cards in 1974 and seams are narrower from that point forward.

galaxy27 · May 17, 2015 2:11AM

Great info, Tim. I remember what you said about 102, so is it safe to say 103 is just as dicey, if not more?

The Ryan Express

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 2:16AM

<< Great info, Tim. I remember what you said about 102, so is it safe to say 103 is just as dicey, if not more?

The Ryan Express >>

PWCC all but admits this Ryan rack is fake too. Don't bidders read the find print?!

grote15 · May 17, 2015 2:18AM

<< Great info, Tim. I remember what you said about 102, so is it safe to say 103 is just as dicey, if not more?

The Ryan Express >>

I would caution against using the cert # as the sole barometer for the authenticity of the pack as the vast majority of all GAI packs in the silver flips are perfectly fine, with some exceptions. I have opened probabaly a couple hundred GAI graded packs (mainly wax, with some racks and cellos, also) over the past few years, and have also encountered some bad packs with the early bar code flip (101XXX), too. I think that each pack really has to be evaluated based on its own attributes and qualifications. There's no real magic formula based on the cert # or era, though we can say that all the bad early 70s grocery cellos were graded with cert #s that begin with 102XXX.

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 2:26AM

It's incredibly responsible of PWCC to acknowledge that a GAI rack is questionable.

gemint · May 17, 2015 2:33AM

As a benchmark, here are scans of my '71 racks which I'm confident are authentic and untampered with. All are 1st series and all have the circular punch hole. Anyone who's thinking of buying a '71 rack, particularly early series, should store these images and compare those packs to these in terms of the header card and seams.

grote15 · May 17, 2015 2:39AM

John,

Beautiful rack selection there and a textbook example of what you should look for in early series (1st through 3rd) 1971 racks.

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 2:40AM

One thing that hasn't been established to my memory is the difference between the one sided and two sided header cards and when they were used. Is there any rule for this, or were they used interchangeably?

belz · May 17, 2015 2:42AM

Wow Gemint!!!

grote15 · May 17, 2015 2:45AM

<< One thing that hasn't been established to my memory is the difference between the one sided and two sided header cards and when they were used. Is there any rule for this, or were they used interchangeably? >>

I don't believe there is any real significance between the two variations, at least as far as my research shows. Topps used two-sided header cards with same large circular punch holes on all 1970 racks, so if I were to speculate, I would say that 1971 racks with those headers were a continuation from the previous year, whereas the one-side headers were unique to 1971, but that is just my theory.

Unknown · May 17, 2015 3:07AM

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galaxy27 · May 17, 2015 3:24AM

<< 

<< Great info, Tim. I remember what you said about 102, so is it safe to say 103 is just as dicey, if not more?

The Ryan Express >>

I would caution against using the cert # as the sole barometer for the authenticity of the pack as the vast majority of all GAI packs in the silver flips are perfectly fine, with some exceptions. I have opened probabaly a couple hundred GAI graded packs (mainly wax, with some racks and cellos, also) over the past few years, and have also encountered some bad packs with the early bar code flip (101XXX), too. I think that each pack really has to be evaluated based on its own attributes and qualifications. There's no real magic formula based on the cert # or era, though we can say that all the bad early 70s grocery cellos were graded with cert #s that begin with 102XXX. >>

Invaluable 411, thanks again.

Not to belabor this, as I'm just trying to siphon off as much knowledge as I can, but was GAI consistently inconsistent where '70 & '71 racks are concerned? In other words, were they notorious for authenticating both cross-hatch and circular from those years? A bullet hole is rather conspicuous, no? lol

@John- SICK racks!

BaltimoreYankee · May 17, 2015 3:30AM

John - Some great '71 racks there and a great service to the unopened community to post them.

My first thought when I saw that Bly11/Bench rack last week was 'fake'. Same when I saw the 1970 Ryan rack. Doesn't matter if they are certified or not. There are way too many fake packs out there.

dennis07 · May 17, 2015 5:08AM

The header card in the PWCC auction is up side down compared to the one gemint is displaying. Is that normal or does that prove this is aftermarket?

grote15 · May 17, 2015 5:10AM

<< The header card in the PWCC auction is up side down compared to the one gemint is displaying. Is that normal or does that prove this is aftermarket? >>

No, you will occasionally see that in factory sealed racks from any year. Occasionally, you will even see the header card with reverse side on front, too, typically with late 70s racks.

dennis07 · May 17, 2015 5:30AM

<< The header card in the PWCC auction is up side down compared to the one gemint is displaying. Is that normal or does that prove this is aftermarket? >>

"No, you will occasionally see that in factory sealed racks from any year. Occasionally, you will even see the header card with reverse side on front, too, typically with late 70s racks."

OK, Thanks. That's what I was thinking.

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 6:18AM

<< The header card in the PWCC auction is up side down compared to the one gemint is displaying. Is that normal or does that prove this is aftermarket? >>

It's punched in the correct spot, and consistent with where the card is punched, so that aspect seems legit.

Are unpunched header cards around the hobby?

packCollector · May 17, 2015 7:10AM

I brought this up a few auctions ago. PWCC is a joke! They know all these packs and all the Christmas packs are flat out fakes. But they hide behind the guidance of aftermarket but the cards are original. Friggin JOKE!!! They should start taking consignment for fake and resealed wax packs in the same manner. What the heck is the difference? Nothing , all bogus crap that they are using their reputation to get great prices for the consignors.

These racks are flat out resealed fakes. No legitimate dealer would touch these.

Unknown · May 17, 2015 8:00AM

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70ToppsFanatic · May 17, 2015 8:51AM

Brent was provided with a reasonably detailed explanation about the late 1960s and early 1970s racks he has listed in
the current auction. He then modified the descriptions accordingly when it was basically certain that the rack in question
was definitely after-market.

PaulMaul · May 17, 2015 8:57AM

When did the euphemism "after market" start being used? It may be appropriate for items like Christmas racks, but for a 1970 or 1971 rack, the appropriate term is "faked","re-sealed" or something else that emphasizes the obvious goal of deceiving the buyer.

begsu1013 · May 17, 2015 8:57AM

caveat emptor. but i wouldn't do it either.

70ToppsFanatic · May 17, 2015 9:04AM

<< When did the euphemism "after market" start being used? It may be appropriate for items like Christmas racks, but for a 1970 or 1971 rack, the appropriate term is "faked","re-sealed" or something else that emphasizes the obvious goal of deceiving the buyer. >>

I agree with this. All I could do was provide Brent with the information that identified them as not being authentic. However, at the end of the day
Brent is a businessman. He came up with revised language to make them as attractive as he could I guess.

Unfortunately these items continue to circulate. IMO it is up to all of us to share the information about how to identify non-authentic packs
such as these. If people choose to ignore that and still want to pay outrageous money for such items then ultimately they will find a
much more limited re-sale market as more and more people get educated.

gemint · May 17, 2015 1:13PM

<< 

<< When did the euphemism "after market" start being used? It may be appropriate for items like Christmas racks, but for a 1970 or 1971 rack, the appropriate term is "faked","re-sealed" or something else that emphasizes the obvious goal of deceiving the buyer. >>

I agree with this. All I could do was provide Brent with the information that identified them as not being authentic. However, at the end of the day
Brent is a businessman. He came up with revised language to make them as attractive as he could I guess.

Unfortunately these items continue to circulate. IMO it is up to all of us to share the information about how to identify non-authentic packs
such as these. If people choose to ignore that and still want to pay outrageous money for such items then ultimately they will find a
much more limited re-sale market as more and more people get educated. >>

I hope the winner does to it what I did with my 1965 wax pack I bought off eBay several years ago...open it and remove it and the wrapper from circulation.

BaltimoreYankee · May 17, 2015 8:58PM

<< IMO it is up to all of us to share the information about how to identify non-authentic packs
such as these. If people choose to ignore that and still want to pay outrageous money for such items then ultimately they will find a
much more limited re-sale market as more and more people get educated. >>

Dave - The board members here are doing a good thing bringing issues like this to light. The problem is, there is probably a very small percentage of collectors who even know these boards exist. I was quite naïve about the shenanigans of 'unopened' packs until reading about them here. Too many people just don't know this resource exists.

jmsodpc · May 18, 2015 12:48AM

Pwcc has a 1971 hockey rack for sale too

Should the hockey pack have the large punch out too?

PaulMaul · May 18, 2015 1:24AM

<< Pwcc has a 1971 hockey rack for sale too

Should the hockey pack have the large punch out too? >>

I would think that if the 1971 baseball racks went to the cross punch for the 4th series, that would be earlier than any hockey release. So it should probably have the cross punch, which it does.

Wow unopened rack

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