I blame Zohar (two newps today)

EVillageProwler · April 23, 2015 5:28AM

Zohar is a terrible friend. He told me about a nice, cheap sceat on vauction, and so I went to take a look. I won that lot, but ended up winning another much more expensive (and rare!) piece. Bad friend. Bad, bad friend.

Anglo-Saxon, Continental Sceattas. Ca. 710/5-735. AR sceatta (12 mm, 0.98 g, 12 h). Series E. 'Porcupine' right / 'Standard' with T O T ·I·I· ; crosses on outer sides. Cf. Metcalf 227; cf. Abramson 94; North 48; SCBC 790. Toned, nice metal. Extremely fine.

And, now for the expensive piece:

Anglo-Saxon, Kings of Wessex. Aethelwulf. 839-858. AR penny (20 mm, 1.32 g, 6 h). Phase II, BMC v. Canterbury, ca. 845-848. Manna, moneyer. +EÐELVVLF REX, diademed bust of Aethelwulf right / +M·A·HN·A· MONET·A·, cross-crosslet. SCBI 2 (Hunterian & Coats), 543 var. (legends); BMC 28 var. (legends); North 610; SCBC 1047. Nicely toned, good metal. Very fine. Ex Marian A. Sinton Collection (CNG 53, 15 March 2000), 2237.

This coin was also in CNG inventory (after the CNG 53 sale) listed for $1650. I would love to be able to buy this at that price level.

PS Zohar is not really a bad friend. In fact, he is a good friend and a good guy. I just need to blame someone for my lack of self-control.

Aethelred · April 23, 2015 5:47AM

I will know to avoid Zohar, thank you for the warning!

TwoKopeiki · April 23, 2015 5:49AM

Bad, but feels so good!

Great newps, EVP!

Zohar · April 23, 2015 5:56AM

Glad you took it!

asheland · April 23, 2015 6:11AM

Cool coins!

EVillageProwler · April 23, 2015 6:20AM

For those who don't know, *any* Aethelwulf penny is rare. The most common Phase I (839-c.843) penny is S-1044, a non-portrait piece with SAXONIORVM on the reverse. It catalogs (2014) for GBP2000 in VF. The most common Phase II (c.843-848) penny is also the S-1046 non-portrait type with varying reverses (but different than S-1044). This catalogs at GBP1850 in VF.

My piece, a Phase II portrait type, catalogs at GBP3000 in VF. I'd like a nicer piece (GVF++ or NEF) for the monarch, but this coin is a very wholesome albeit not high grade piece and will hold the place nicely.

EVP

JCMhouston · April 23, 2015 6:50AM

That cleaned and retoned Continental looks pretty good.

EVillageProwler · April 23, 2015 7:00AM

<< That cleaned and retoned Continental looks pretty good.

>>

I'll let you know once I receive it if it is nicer than your cleaned and re-toned avatar coin.

Nap · April 23, 2015 9:23AM

Congrats EVP, glad you got the Aethelwulf piece! I think it's a nice coin and would have bid against you if not for the fact that I have a newborn at home and need to keep a lid on my budget for the near future.

<< The most common Phase I (839-c.843) penny is S-1044, a non-portrait piece with SAXONIORVM on the reverse >>

I've shown my S.1044 Aethelwulf coin in the past, it's aVF but slightly chipped.

Aethelwulf pennies are rare, although you see a couple for sale every year. I think the most common type is Phase IV (S.1051), the inscribed cross portrait type.

EVillageProwler · April 23, 2015 10:04AM

Nap,

I recall your SAXONIORVM, and it is a very nice coin despite the chip. The chip doesn't interfere with the legend by much, and it also doesn't seem to me that the coin is of bad metal. Otherwise, it has a decent strike and overall look.

Lloyd Bennett had a nice S-1044 in GVF last year, but I was paralyzed by indecision (and ignorance). By the time I checked again, the coin was sold.

And, btw, thanks for not bidding against me but I wish the underbidder had done the same.

He was there at the end and bumped me up several increments within the last 30 seconds. That was the longest 30 seconds of my life!

EVP

marcmoish · April 23, 2015 11:47AM

Love the insinuating title

Yes agreed he is a very very bad person.

I don't know much about these but if you happy, I'm happy!

nicholasz219 · April 23, 2015 6:04PM

Those are pretty stellar, EVP. You pick nice material even when you aren't really in the market.

lordmarcovan · April 23, 2015 6:08PM

<< I blame Zohar (two newps today) >>

From the title of this thread, I expected to see some thalers, or at least some high-end NGC ancients!

Cool sceatta you've been posting lately. In the past I've always found them a bit crude and small for my tastes, but I'm evolving. You're probably influencing that. I can remember wishing I'd dig one when I was on my England detecting trip.

EVillageProwler · April 24, 2015 7:20AM

<< 

<< I blame Zohar (two newps today) >>

From the title of this thread, I expected to see some thalers, or at least some high-end NGC ancients!

Cool sceatta you've been posting lately. In the past I've always found them a bit crude and small for my tastes, but I'm evolving. You're probably influencing that. I can remember wishing I'd dig one when I was on my England detecting trip. >>

No thalers for me this time, and certainly no ancients for me (although some have lumped the early Anglo-Saxon coins into the same category as ancients because the time period overlap with the Byzantine empire).

Sceattas are crude, but are also interesting and have great variety too. The problem with them is that they are so hard to learn: grade, rarity, value. And, they are tiny. If you blow up a high-res image of one, even if very nice, you'll see too much detail.

EVP

NiceCurrency · April 26, 2015 5:12AM

wow those are fantastic

I may have already asked this before (I hope not) but what reference(s) are recommended for hammered english coinage and such? I've been dipping a toe into them

Nap · April 26, 2015 5:56AM

<< I may have already asked this before (I hope not) but what reference(s) are recommended for hammered english coinage and such? I've been dipping a toe into them >>

Start with Spink's "Coins of England." Essentially the Red Book of British coins.

If you're interested in sceats I recommend Sceatta List by Tony Abramson. There are other more detailed references but this one is a good start and is fairly inexpensive.

As far as Wessex pennies, there is no one good reference for that time period. I'd start with perusing the British numismatic Journal archives here. It's as cheap as free and has a tremendous amount of information (some of which is of course outdated, the archives go back to 1903)

NiceCurrency · April 26, 2015 6:20AM

<< 

<< I may have already asked this before (I hope not) but what reference(s) are recommended for hammered english coinage and such? I've been dipping a toe into them >>

Start with Spink's "Coins of England." Essentially the Red Book of British coins.

If you're interested in sceats I recommend Sceatta List by Tony Abramson. There are other more detailed references but this one is a good start and is fairly inexpensive.

As far as Wessex pennies, there is no one good reference for that time period. I'd start with perusing the British numismatic Journal archives here. It's as cheap as free and has a tremendous amount of information (some of which is of course outdated, the archives go back to 1903) >>

Thank you

is it this?

http://www.amazon.com/Coins-England-United-Kingdom-2015/dp/1907427430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430079557&sr=8-1&keywords=Coins+of+England

Nap · April 26, 2015 7:36AM

<< is it this?
http://www.amazon.com/Coins-England-United-Kingdom-2015/dp/1907427430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430079557&sr=8-1&keywords=Coins+of+England >>

I believe that's the one, it looks a little different than the previous editions as it looks like it splits the pre-decimal and later issues into different volumes (?)

But yes it is the Spink guide and Philip Skingley is the editor.

I have the 2013 edition.

NiceCurrency · April 26, 2015 7:51AM

Nap · April 26, 2015 7:56AM

<< Nap,

I recall your SAXONIORVM, and it is a very nice coin despite the chip. The chip doesn't interfere with the legend by much, and it also doesn't seem to me that the coin is of bad metal. Otherwise, it has a decent strike and overall look.

Lloyd Bennett had a nice S-1044 in GVF last year, but I was paralyzed by indecision (and ignorance). By the time I checked again, the coin was sold.

And, btw, thanks for not bidding against me but I wish the underbidder had done the same.

He was there at the end and bumped me up several increments within the last 30 seconds. That was the longest 30 seconds of my life!

EVP >>

Thanks. I keep telling myself that damaged coins are not a great buy, but a coin like this allows me to pick up something quite rare for a fraction of the cost of a problem-free one. I think I recall seeing Lloyd's Aethelwulf penny when it was listed.

I know that end of auction feeling where your max bid gets closer and closer to becoming the underbid...

The auction where I bought the Aethelwulf, I managed to upset the auctioneer by putting in a last second internet bid. He was displeased and went on a tirade about how the auction will take all day if people like me keep making late bids on the lots. I think because of that nobody else made a bid on the lot, so it may not have worked out so badly for me.

Zohar · April 26, 2015 8:17AM

Nap - what got you into these - history or design?

Nap · April 26, 2015 9:59AM

<< Nap - what got you into these - history or design? >>

History.

I'm from the US and collected bust half dollars for many years. I still have that collection but it's become dormant. I sort of lost interest because of rising prices and emphasis on third party grading, stickers, and other non-numismatic features.

My collection focus is Northumbrian stycas which are some of the downright ugliest of coins. They are the definition of uninspired designs, featuring a king's poorly spelled name on one side and a moneyer's poorly spelled name on the other. They are small. Many have heavy verdigris (I'm not sure if it's possible to remove this as the majority coins are brass, not bronze or copper and I'm not sure how the tin reacts to most solvents). It is not for aesthetics that I collect.

But I grew up reading Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretien de Troyes, Asser, Venerable Bede, Nennius, etc. I have no particular ancestry connection to England, but I did spend some time studying there and I guess I'm somewhat of an Anglophile. I find the medieval period fascinating.

I chose a coin series based partly on availability and cost. It's possible to build a fairly comprehensive collection of coins without being a millionaire, and the competition for coins of which several dozen or less are known is not nearly as great as it would be in more popular areas. There have been hoard finds of thousands of these coins, and if you can stomach the dry text, there is a great deal of information about these coins, including metallurgical studies, distribution of finds, die links, etc. You can actually match most of these coins to their exact obverse/reverse dies in one of the major reference collections. I don't think this is possible for most coins >1000 years old.

EVillageProwler · April 26, 2015 1:08PM

Nap - your bio is nearly identical to mine.

For me: history. I'm Chinese-American, and have no connection to GB other than that I speak the language (albiet in the NJ/NY American way). I, too, grew up reading stuff pertaining to Western Europe of the Dark Ages and early Medieval period. I even briefly studied Olde English. Don't know why I'm an Anglophile, but I am... I even eat fish and chips with vinegar instead of tartar sauce or ketchup. (Zohar can vouch for that.)

These Anglo-Saxon coins do not exhibit good craftsmanship, to say the least, but they are extremely cool to me. I own two pennies from Alfred the Great. I cherish them, because I envision these two little coins being around when Alfred saved his people and then uplifted them by encouraging literacy and the arts. It is NOT HYPERBOLE or METAPHOR to say that King Alfred of Wessex saved his people. And I have two of his pennies.

I also own a penny from Athelstan, grandson of Alfred on which is an inscription proclaiming him King Over All Britain (because the Scots, Welsh, Danes and all the Anglo-Saxon lords submitted to him). This penny is not that rare when found from the York mint (newly liberated from the Danes). But mine is from the London mint, the main city of his people and an ancient Celtic settlement and Roman outpost.

And, I started with early US coinage. Most are now gone, but I still have one major portion remaining.

Where we differ is that I have chosen an area of Anglo-Saxon coinage that is expensive.

EVP

nicholasz219 · April 26, 2015 2:11PM

It is funny when is collectors think about the certain areas that we find ourselves in love with after a few years. Of course being from the United States you start collecting from change and then get interested in older coins too. I also had a lot of exposure to the dark side early because of my grandfather and great uncles all being veterans. Since they almost all did their service overseas, they gave me all of the dark side stuff they had been carrying around for forty years since the war. Banknotes and coins. Then my local dealer had a lot of world coins in albums but they really didn't sell because most of the local collectors specialized in U.S. Silver. So I got the first few hundred of my Russian coins that way, buying them at what would now be highway robbery prices.

I'm Polish Ukrainian Austrian and Irish. And I find myself knee deep in Russian, ancient, Hungarian and British coins. I too love the history and love learning about the people and kings who made history. The U.S. has that too, just a shorter amount of recorded time. Like EVP said, if you can hold a penny of Alfred the Great just like he could have or just to know that this thing actually existed and had a purpose in his time then that is super fascinating. I think of us collectors who as a whole are much more interested in connecting with the past and the greater fabric of being a human than the general population. It also takes work and knowledge to gain knowledge so our numbers never get crazy.

I see these Sceatta and am instantly taken back to what I imagine that time to be like.

EVillageProwler · May 4, 2015 9:20AM

Got my two coins today, and I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that the sceat isn't as nice as cataloged or pictured. The toning isn't pretty, and I feel the grade is more like GVF or NEF, not EF. These are common. When I find a much better piece, I will try to buy and replace this one.

The good news is that if it weren't for the mis-leading picture of the sceat, then Zohar wouldn't have told me about it and I wouldn't have seen the Aethelwulf. The Aethelwulf penny is indeed a very nice portrait type coin for the grade: VF. It is very wholesome, as I expected. I would've liked a GVF piece, but they are rare and when I find a wholesome GVF (or better), I think I will have no problem getting out of this VF piece (or, keeping this too if it's a different type).

Thanks again to Zohar, for were it not for him I'd still be needing to scratch my itch. Keep 'em coming, my friend!

EVP

Zohar · May 4, 2015 10:02AM

Nap · May 4, 2015 10:38AM

<< Got my two coins today, and I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that the sceat isn't as nice as cataloged or pictured. The toning isn't pretty, and I feel the grade is more like GVF or NEF, not EF. These are common. When I find a much better piece, I will try to buy and replace this one.

The good news is that if it weren't for the mis-leading picture of the sceat, then Zohar wouldn't have told me about it and I wouldn't have seen the Aethelwulf. The Aethelwulf penny is indeed a very nice portrait type coin for the grade: VF. It is very wholesome, as I expected. I would've liked a GVF piece, but they are rare and when I find a wholesome GVF (or better), I think I will have no problem getting out of this VF piece (or, keeping this too if it's a different type).

Thanks again to Zohar, for were it not for him I'd still be needing to scratch my itch. Keep 'em coming, my friend!

EVP >>

Glad it wasn't the other way around. The Aethelwulf penny is a keeper then!

LochNESS · May 4, 2015 5:28PM

Ditto. Glad the pricier coin is the good news.

I blame Zohar (two newps today)

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