real bar?

JohnnyCache

I'm confused a bit, nothing we didn't already know, but is this a real Engelhard bar?

Ultra - Rare - Bar




My original post below, to which dolomite replied but I edited before I realized someone had replied.

Ok, I can hear it already, those in the know wouldn't be fooled by this bar. Alright I can give you that, couple it with the fact that this seller is currently following all the rules regarding "replicas" and it's all good right? But how long will it really be before better made examples from far less scrupulous sellers bring this market down to its knees?

What are we going to see in the future with respect to collectible bars? Will an entity like All-Engelhard, who has a good jump into this area of collecting, certify, grade and encase old pours, don't laugh it might not be a bad idea. If nothing is done I think this market is going to erode rather quickly. You have to know that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I consider those of us who collect rare coins to be fortunate to have third party graders in the mix, as they help to weed out fakes, even if it wasn't originally part of their intended objective. There is still a long way to go in the coin market with respect to protecting against fakes. I believe the likes of PCGS and NGC need to be more active in the area of developing holders with integrated cross checking technologies, think smart tag, that are highly effective against being counterfeited. It is in their best interest to do so if they want to keep the level of trust and integrity that is currently associated with their brands IMO, especially as more fake holders are making their way to the market.

Thoughts?

dolomite

<< <i>See the link provided: Ultra - Rare

Ok, I can hear it already, those in the know wouldn't be fooled by this bar. Alright I can give you that, couple it with the fact that this seller is currently following all the rules regarding "replicas" and it's all good right? But how long will it really be before better made examples from far less scrupulous sellers bring this market down to its knees?

What are we going to see in the future with respect to collectible bars? Will an entity like All-Engelhard, who has a good jump into this area of collecting, certify, grade and encase old pours, don't laugh it might not be a bad idea. If nothing is done I think this market is going to erode rather quickly. You have to know that this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Personally, I consider those of us who collect rare coins to be fortunate to have third party graders in the mix, as they help to weed out fakes, even if it wasn't originally part of their intended objective. There is still a long way to go in the coin market with respect to protecting against fakes. I believe the likes of PCGS and NGC need to be more active in the area of developing holders with integrated cross checking technologies, think smart tag, that are highly effective against being counterfeited. It is in their best interest to do so if they want to keep the level of trust and integrity that is currently associated with their brands IMO, especially as more fake holders are making their way to the market.

Thoughts? >>



JC, thanks for the thought provoking discussion! I've considered these dynamics many times and matter of counterfeit examples maintains my attention on a regular basis. As a community, I feel we've done a terrific job on cleaning up the market through good communication and keeping others aware of suspect examples. All Engelhard maintains an Auction Watchtower page which collectors can visit to keep up to date on counterfeit examples being offered to market.

This constant threat of evolved counterfeit bars to market will likely continue as the collector community grows and demand for these rare examples increases. In this regard, I don't feel the threat to our ingot market will be much different than the constant threat to the rare coin market. Coins do have considerable more protection than ingots thanks to grading services but the threat of quality reproductions remains nonetheless. All Engelhard offers a free authentication service for older poured bars, not limited to just Engelhard. Perhaps there will be demand for an even more proper certification service in the future though slabbing bars would be out of the question.

At present, I feel the community is doing all it can to keep counterfeit examples at bay and doing a reasonably good job. With most examples being offered via public venue such as eBay it is relatively easy to keep collectors informed. Some of the All Engelhard group of collectors even post mock auctions to alert buyers to current fraud offerings as the Watchtower page has limited visibility to many buyers.

Last consideration that I feel is the most significant protection a buyer can have is to KNOW YOUR SELLER. And don't hesitate to ask questions as to the bar's history! Provenance on these Legacy Ingots is very important and certainly affects the value of any piece.

Stack hard and stack cautiously

Edited to add original quote.

CaptHenway

What the Sam Hill?????

JohnnyCache

Sorry for any confusion.

I had written the quoted text from dolomite but edited my post before anyone had replied, or so I thought.

I edited the post because, as it currently states, I was confused as to whether or not the bar listed on ebay was real or fake.

My initial interpretation was that it was fake and marked as such showing "replica", however upon re-reading the sellers listing info I began to think that perhaps the "replica" wording was put on a real bar by Engelhard. Then I just plain felt confused so I removed my original post and asked for clarification of the the legitimacy of the bar.

Real or fake the initial post I made probably does have merit just the same. If the bar is fake, it's most certainly one of the better ones I have seen, if it's real well I suppose it's still just a matter of time before good fakes do become prolific, particularly in light of $5000.00 plus selling prices on rare bars. I'd say that more than enough motivation for the criminal types.

Sorry for the confusion caused by my part.

JC

JohnnyCache

By the way, dolomite, is it real?

If yes, do you have any idea on how many were made?

rawteam1

It's the worst fake I've ever seen...
No whining or any fake attempts will deny the true market, just like in any other fake industry...

rawteam1

Lol, does replica = real? ... I don't understand the apparent simplicity of a fake... Then someone thinks it's real????

rawteam1

Apparently its confusing people, since a $50 bar of generic silver is going for some big $$$ so far....lol
People are quite amazing...

TWQG

It's a crude fake worth about $17.

JohnnyCache

Oh boy, Now I finally get it.

Its a REAL Fake bar - Certified as a replica by all engelgard, sorry tough day for me.

I'm not knowledgeable in old pour bars, but all the discussion recently has piqued my interest.
That said, I better stay out of the arena, as I can't distinguish real from fake.
A mans got to know his limitations, and I'm quite limited.

Thanks rawteam for your reply.


I think I'll stop typing now, in 3..2..

rawteam1

<< <i>It's a crude fake worth about $17. >>


It's 3.215 oz's...

Timbuk3

It's explained as "replica" !!! :-)

TWQG

<< <i>

<< <i>It's a crude fake worth about $17. >>


It's 3.215 oz's... >>



You are correct, my glasses are on now.

JohnnyCache

We all can't be on our game everyday.

I think these two aspects led to my confusion.

1) Current Bid: US $267.15 [ 33 bids ]

2)-THIS IS ONE OF ONLY FEW KNOWN VERIFIED REPLICA 100 GRAM ENGELHARD BARS & WAS ONE OF THE FIRST BARS USED IN CONDUCTING COUNTERFIET TESTING. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO OWN A PIECE OF ENGELHARD HISTORY!


Try not to be mean, we should be here to help each other.

rawteam1

That's marketing or political speak...
Always used to steer away from the truth by focusing on everything but the truth, so the truth becomes fiction right in front of you, cool trick, used every second of every day by politicians and sly marketers...

LowBudget

let them get ripped off if they are that stupid. edited to add.. oh ALLENGELHARD.COM. made this !!

dolomite

JC, these bars are tough for many collectors. It was a hard road convincing others of this fraud in the beginning as nobody would believe so I completely understand your position. Current seller is reputable and originally acquired this piece from JB Campbell himself along with a box load of 3's and 5's. had no idea they were counterfeit until I messaged him through eBay about his listing. I assure you the beatings I took were much worse early in the fight ;-)

Thank you again for a terrific discussion and cheers!

MsMorrisine

<< <i>We all can't be on our game everyday.

I think these two aspects led to my confusion.

1) Current Bid: US $267.15 [ 33 bids ]

2)-THIS IS ONE OF ONLY FEW KNOWN VERIFIED REPLICA 100 GRAM ENGELHARD BARS & WAS ONE OF THE FIRST BARS USED IN CONDUCTING COUNTERFIET TESTING. THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO OWN A PIECE OF ENGELHARD HISTORY!


Try not to be mean, we should be here to help each other. >>




The funny business starts with the owning a piece of englehard history.

Replica melt is not a piece of history.

rawteam1

History in the making, right before your very eyes...

rawteam1

It's a piece of the buyer's (now seller) history... Lol... And now can become a part of yours...

seebelow

at $267 now. Fair enough price? hmmm. oh boy

OnlyGoldIsMoney

Not a particularly good counterfeit IMO. Any bids over the melt value for 100 grams of 999 silver make no sense to me.

I would have preferred if the seller had just chucked this item into the melt bucket for redemption at a refinery.

tneig

Nice hunk of lead there. Be neat in someone else's collection,
or mine for $10.

asheland

Unbelievable it's over $200!