Is this an example of a "No Qualifier" graded card?
dtkk49a
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As Casey mentioned, it's not a clear scan all the way around, but I think it's pretty clear where the card is the most off center ... at the top L/R. I measure the card at 32/68 L/R at the top, which would make this card an O/C if it were given the grade of "8".
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>I'm going to say yes. PSA's centering standards for an "8" are: Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
As Casey mentioned, it's not a clear scan all the way around, but I think it's pretty clear where the card is the most off center ... at the top L/R. I measure the card at 32/68 L/R at the top, which would make this card an O/C if it were given the grade of "8". >>
+1
<< <i>Is it a 8OC knocked down to a 6 ?
Link >>
Yes, qualifier is typically (but not always) equivalent to two full grades. I'd say that card is correctly graded without the qualifier.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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<< <i>We had this discussion recently, but two grades should not necessarily be docked for an OC qualifier. Tim suggested that that's only done if the card doesn't qualify for the next lower unqualified grade, and I hope that's true, because a straight deduction of two grades for a card that would have gotten an OC does not make sense. >>
Does that card look like a straight 7 to you, David? I think the 6 is the right grade for that card.
When a card has a surface issue like PD and is otherwise mint, it will also almost always net grade two grades lower at NM 7.
I think sometimes we may also focus too much on centering at the exclusive of other factors that determine the grade for a card.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>We had this discussion recently, but two grades should not necessarily be docked for an OC qualifier. Tim suggested that that's only done if the card doesn't qualify for the next lower unqualified grade, and I hope that's true, because a straight deduction of two grades for a card that would have gotten an OC does not make sense. >>
That makes sense to me, generally. In this case, the card looks like it has other factors that may downgrade, other than centering. Hard to tell, again, but the bottom two corners look a bit touched.
<< <i>
Does that card look like a straight 7 to you, David? I think the 6 is the right grade for that card.
>>
I certainly agree the card is ugly, but I can say the same thing for countless 8a and 9s as well. Given the tendency to ignore tilt, I don't personally see anything that seems to violate grading standards for a 7, though there could certainly be other defects that aren't obvious in a scan.
That's assuming it's really 70/30 at the worst point, I didn't measure it.
Tilted eBay 9
...I could believe the other card is a 7.
<< <i>
<< <i>We had this discussion recently, but two grades should not necessarily be docked for an OC qualifier. Tim suggested that that's only done if the card doesn't qualify for the next lower unqualified grade, and I hope that's true, because a straight deduction of two grades for a card that would have gotten an OC does not make sense. >>
That makes sense to me, generally. In this case, the card looks like it has other factors that may downgrade, other than centering. Hard to tell, again, but the bottom two corners look a bit touched. >>
That is my assessment of this card, as well.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Or to put it another way, if this card is a 9...
Tilted eBay 9
...I could believe the other card is a 7. >>
David, that card is razor sharp and has the attributes of a mint 9 card, though.
There is a slight tilt, yes, but the card is also sitting crooked in the holder which makes it seem more pronounced than it truly is.
I know tilts bother you as a collector, but PSA doesn't downgrade for them as long as the criteria is otherwise met for the grade.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What features of the Palmer, other than tilt and centering, make 7 seem inappropriate to you?
<< <i>That's more than a slight tilt to me, but I admit it is a pet peeve, so I'm probably more sensitive than average.
What features of the Palmer, other than tilt and centering, make 7 seem inappropriate to you? >>
The scan is pretty fuzzy, but there appears to be wear on top left and botton left corners. That, coupled with poor centering, and I would expect a 6 or 6.5 if I were submitting the card. If it were to grade NM 7, I don't feel it would command typical NM 7 money.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>That seems fair. My only point is that, like the '72 Grzenda technically satisfies 9 requirements, yet is an extremely unappealing example of that grade, the Palmer as a 7 might fit a similar description. >>
I don't disagree with your point, but PSA doesn't hate tilts like you do, David, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
I don't disagree with your point, but PSA doesn't hate tilts like you do, David, LOL.. >>
That's all too evident, unfortunately. I do think they should revisit that point of view though. To me, the whole purpose of grading is to judge what defects bother collectors and how much, on average, and then come up with standards that reflect that. And I find it hard to believe that a 9 with that kind of tilt is more esthetically desirable to anyone than the average decently centered, well-cut 8.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I don't disagree with your point, but PSA doesn't hate tilts like you do, David, LOL.. >>
That's all too evident, unfortunately. I do think they should revisit that point of view though. To me, the whole purpose of grading is to judge what defects bother collectors and how much, on average, and then come up with standards that reflect that. And I find it hard to believe that a 9 with that kind of tilt is more esthetically desirable to anyone than the average decently centered, well-cut 8. >>
You do have a point~I feel the same with regard to a tiny spider wrinkle rendering an otherwise dead centered mint card grade no better than EX 5.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Isn't this a debate over a possible 8OC relegated to a 6?
My take?
The 8OC is a more accurate description of the card vs it being NQ'ed to a 6.
<< <i>If I have the question correctly?
Isn't this a debate over a possible 8OC relegated to a 6?
My take?
The 8OC is a more accurate description of the card vs it being NQ'ed to a 6. >>
I would agree but if the submitter requested no qualifiers the 6 is what PSA will assign in lieu of the 8OC.
I have submitted same card not requesting no qualifiers and have gotten both 9PD and a straight 7. I suppose it's up to the grader's discretion unless no qualifiers are requested.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>You do have a point~I feel the same with regard to a tiny spider wrinkle rendering an otherwise dead centered mint card grade no better than EX 5. >>
Give me a dead centered mint card with a tiny pinhole (which renders an AUTOMATIC "1") and I'll take them at the 1-2 price all day long!!!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>You do have a point~I feel the same with regard to a tiny spider wrinkle rendering an otherwise dead centered mint card grade no better than EX 5. >>
Give me a dead centered mint card with a tiny pinhole (which renders an AUTOMATIC "1") and I'll take them at the 1-2 price all day long!!! >>
+1
<< <i>
I don't disagree with your point, but PSA doesn't hate tilts like you do, David, LOL.. >>
In fairness to PSA, tilt is a hard defect to quantify. I've come up with a measurement I use that works for me but it's kind of complicated.
The really egregious thing to me is when a card is 60/40 L/R with the left border being wider on top and the right being wider on the bottom,
as in this card:
'72 Killebrew Tilt
To me it's ridiculous to say a card like this has 60/40 centering. Does anyone see this as more desirable than a card with 70/30 centering that's properly cut?