let me rephrase it then. the "highly respected seller" you choose to defend. how's that.
the facts are being presented to you right here and now. if you can't see what this forum is attempting to do, then you're in denial.
the seller in question has been "outted". there's no doubt in my mind that this person is dirty. >>
at least your mind is made up. that is good so maybe you'll shut up
I will shut up because I have made up my mind which is that i have wasted to much time responding to you since you are a tool and seem to know everything.
<< <i>ook at "STARS". S & T are orange. ARS is red. first thing that caught my eye. and caused a burst of laughter filled with vomit. >>
guess your eyes and monitor are better than mine since I still don't see it, I will go ask for a refund on my lasik and will sue apple for a refund on the monitor. at least I won't have to taste vomit.
<< <i>Weren't we right recently when we figured that the PSA 10 Montana was fake? >>
no idea and don't really care but good for you guys. How many "fakes" have you figured out that weren't fakes? still don't care but I am sure there are some.
quite frankly this is psa's job to take care of not the boards. if someone is faking and tainting their product , they should do something[/q
Agreed!!
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
I'm not sure the font is enough to condemn a flip, but it could be an indicator.
Look at the buynice card again, and you'll see the "SC" in scoring leader is higher than the rest.
Also, the 6s in the serial number look a little funky but I could probably get over that. The second "7" however is also higher than the other numbers.
So unless we're saying BOTH cards are no good, font analysis alone isn't conclusive. It can be a good indicator, though.
It is a fake. If I could figure out how to post the picture of the flip with the light behind it from my phone I would. You can't see the Psa logo on the back through the holder
<< <i>".....and honestly I don't trust graders as far as I can throw them." >>
lol @ at the use of the word 'honestly'.
Greg, check back with this guy and find out if his mistrust is limited to only PSA graders, or does it also include the PCGS & Beckett graders, whose opinions he's sold off as well.
there seems to be a more prevalent history with Magic The Gathering.....Magic Johnson, not so much. >>
Ironic that someone that does not trust graders chooses to make his living selling cards graded by the same said graders. Think that is a little hypocritical? Also, I think a certain poster on this board and in this thread has also shown their true colors and I am sure numerous folks will choose to not do business or transactions with them in the future either. I personally appreciate and thank those on here that have brought these situations to light.
We've had hundreds of "does this PSA holdered card check out?" threads over the years. They have been educational and useful to me as a person who spends money on PSA graded cards. The evidence in this instance is overwhelming. The cards are fakes. How they came to be fakes and what the seller had to do with it can't be known, but what is certain is that no one should spend a cent on them.
For those arguing the point, please refer to this PSA flip through the years thread. This board is not out to ruin anyone in cases like this. We all have an interest in protecting our investments and not getting screwed.
That is not correct. There were probably thousands of cert numbers issued starting with 06 after PSA got rid of the hologram.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
That is not correct. There were probably thousands of cert numbers issued starting with 06 after PSA got rid of the hologram. >>
Are you sure? Also, my understanding is that when psa went to the back with A division of collectors universe the flips all had a number other than 0 for the first number.
can the seller get in trouble (legal trouble) for selling a fake/reprint card like this? it appears rather obvious that the seller knows it has very questionable authenticity at a minimum.
I'm really pissed about this. There has to be something that can be done. Mail fraud is a Federal offense. Anyone have any ideas?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff.
<< <i>Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
As much as it sickens me, I very unfortunately agree with this statement. I wasn't very hopeful that you would get your money back for the Montana, so I'm very glad to hear that you did. It's absurd that eBay wouldn't let you leave negative feedback, but they have clowns running the show nowadays, so I can't say I'm surprised. If the Bird/Magic sale was legit, and the buyer is happy with the card, then this unscrupulous seller wins again. I checked and the person who bought the bum Bench 10 left glowing positive feedback. Would it be worth calling the Arvada, Colorado PD, or is this something they wouldn't get involved in?
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
With so many ways to get a refund (seller initiation, eBay SNAD case, PayPal, CC charge back), I can't imagine a scenario where a buyer realizes they've been duped but is left holding the bag. The actually scary part is the cards that any of us may own that we *don't know* are fakes. That's why it is good to point them out when noticed - it helps educate everyone so they can keep themselves safe. And, it might just stop a few bad deals along the way.
<< <i>It is a fake. If I could figure out how to post the picture of the flip with the light behind it from my phone I would. You can't see the Psa logo on the back through the holder >>
<< <i>identifying the cards. a good place to start.
or identifying the sellers. the repeat offenders who are abetting the falsification of key information we consider to be gospel.
if the best we can do is spread the news around here, at least it's better than nothing. >>
I'm glad I knew about this place prior to getting the fake Montana. I've seen enough cards in my life to know it was wrong but didn't know how to prove it, I mean it was in a psa 10 holder. Funny thing is when I first called psa for help they told me to ask questions here before I took the time to send the card to them. It was a good learning experience for me as I read for hours about fake flips and altered holders. I feel pretty strongly I can spot a fake flip quickly now.
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
PSA has a lot at stake here........I'm really surprised they're not concerned about fakes.
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
PSA has a lot at stake.........I'm really surprised they're not concerned about fakes.
<< <i> You have this card in hand? Are you the seller? >>
no I am not the seller, do you really think I am the seller and telling you it is a fake and then selling it .
the seller sent me pictures thru ebay and you can clearly see that light does not pass through the flip. If it was a single flip or the original, light would pass and you would see the psa logo that is on the back of the flip. I can't figure out how to save the pictures from the ebay message
I can confirm that Joe Orlando is aware of and in the process of addressing this situation.
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
It was removed from eBay's completed listings about a day after the sale, so I think the good guys won!
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
<< <i>Somebody bought the holder IMHO. I would have bid strong on that card were it not for the dreaded line and the T/B centering. >>
Dan I am not 100% sure that PSA even considers the line as a flaw. I agree it should not be a 10 but out of the two bird magic rookies per sheet one has the line.
A 10 should not have that line . I know for a fact that not all of them do. I may make a project out of determining how many do and how many don't .
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
I guess one without a print line would bring fifty grand.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Somebody bought the holder IMHO. I would have bid strong on that card were it not for the dreaded line and the T/B centering. >>
Dan I am not 100% sure that PSA even considers the line as a flaw. I agree it should not be a 10 but out of the two bird magic rookies per sheet one has the line. >>
I don't disagree with you. However I see it as a flaw and wouldn't buy that had it, btw, I think your 9 below is nicer than that goodwin 10
Comments
<< <i>
That appears to be a fake too, look at his card vs the one sold in 2010.
Can you elaborate, I don't see any obvious differences.
<< <i>Can you elaborate, I don't see any obvious differences. >>
look at "STARS". S & T are orange. ARS is red. first thing that caught my eye. and caused a burst of laughter filled with vomit.
<< <i>
let me rephrase it then. the "highly respected seller" you choose to defend. how's that.
the facts are being presented to you right here and now. if you can't see what this forum is attempting to do, then you're in denial.
the seller in question has been "outted". there's no doubt in my mind that this person is dirty. >>
at least your mind is made up. that is good so maybe you'll shut up
I will shut up because I have made up my mind which is that i have wasted to much time responding to you since you are a tool and seem to know everything.
<< <i>ook at "STARS". S & T are orange. ARS is red. first thing that caught my eye. and caused a burst of laughter filled with vomit. >>
guess your eyes and monitor are better than mine since I still don't see it, I will go ask for a refund on my lasik and will sue apple for a refund on the monitor. at least I won't have to taste vomit.
<< <i>look at "STARS". S & T are orange. ARS is red. >>
I see that too.
(And that dress is blue and brown.)
<< <i>
<< <i>look at "STARS". S & T are orange. ARS is red. >>
I see that too.
(And that dress is blue and brown.) >>
Yep, that was the first thing I noticed too.
http://myworld.ebay.com/dgordo76
My current wish list:
https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=952285&enterthread=y
Please pm me if you want to sell any of these cards.
Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>Weren't we right recently when we figured that the PSA 10 Montana was fake? >>
no idea and don't really care but good for you guys. How many "fakes" have you figured out that weren't fakes? still don't care but I am sure there are some.
quite frankly this is psa's job to take care of not the boards. if someone is faking and tainting their product , they should do something[/q
Agreed!!
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Look at the buynice card again, and you'll see the "SC" in scoring leader is higher than the rest.
Also, the 6s in the serial number look a little funky but I could probably get over that. The second "7" however is also higher than the other numbers.
So unless we're saying BOTH cards are no good, font analysis alone isn't conclusive. It can be a good indicator, though.
<< <i>
<< <i>".....and honestly I don't trust graders as far as I can throw them." >>
lol @ at the use of the word 'honestly'.
Greg, check back with this guy and find out if his mistrust is limited to only PSA graders, or does it also include the PCGS & Beckett graders, whose opinions he's sold off as well.
there seems to be a more prevalent history with Magic The Gathering.....Magic Johnson, not so much. >>
Ironic that someone that does not trust graders chooses to make his living selling cards graded by the same said graders. Think that is a little hypocritical? Also, I think a certain poster on this board and in this thread has also shown their true colors and I am sure numerous folks will choose to not do business or transactions with them in the future either. I personally appreciate and thank those on here that have brought these situations to light.
For those arguing the point, please refer to this PSA flip through the years thread. This board is not out to ruin anyone in cases like this. We all have an interest in protecting our investments and not getting screwed.
-Nathanael
<< <i>Shouldn't an old 06___ cert number usually have a hologram on the back of the flip? Or is the assumption it was reholdered? >>
Yes it should have a hologram.
http://myworld.ebay.com/dgordo76
My current wish list:
https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=952285&enterthread=y
Please pm me if you want to sell any of these cards.
Thanks!
<< <i>Yes it should have a hologram. >>
That is not correct. There were probably thousands of cert numbers issued starting with 06 after PSA got rid of the hologram.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes it should have a hologram. >>
That is not correct. There were probably thousands of cert numbers issued starting with 06 after PSA got rid of the hologram. >>
Are you sure? Also, my understanding is that when psa went to the back with A division of collectors universe the flips all had a number other than 0 for the first number.
http://myworld.ebay.com/dgordo76
My current wish list:
https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=952285&enterthread=y
Please pm me if you want to sell any of these cards.
Thanks!
Currently collecting 1934 Butterfinger, 1969 Nabisco, 1991 Topps Desert Shield (in PSA 9 or 10), and 1990 Donruss Learning Series (in PSA 10).
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise.
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff.
http://myworld.ebay.com/dgordo76
My current wish list:
https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=952285&enterthread=y
Please pm me if you want to sell any of these cards.
Thanks!
<< <i>Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
As much as it sickens me, I very unfortunately agree with this statement. I wasn't very hopeful that you would get your money back for the Montana, so I'm very glad to hear that you did. It's absurd that eBay wouldn't let you leave negative feedback, but they have clowns running the show nowadays, so I can't say I'm surprised. If the Bird/Magic sale was legit, and the buyer is happy with the card, then this unscrupulous seller wins again. I checked and the person who bought the bum Bench 10 left glowing positive feedback. Would it be worth calling the Arvada, Colorado PD, or is this something they wouldn't get involved in?
<< <i>There should be a PSA logo on the slab in the bottom right corner. This does not exist on the OP auction photo. >>
The PSA logo is there; it is just difficult to see. I can just make out the "A" and a bit of the "S".
or identifying the sellers. the repeat offenders who are abetting the falsification of key information we consider to be gospel.
if the best we can do is spread the news around here, at least it's better than nothing.
<< <i>It is a fake. If I could figure out how to post the picture of the flip with the light behind it from my phone I would. You can't see the Psa logo on the back through the holder >>
You have this card in hand? Are you the seller?
<< <i>identifying the cards. a good place to start.
or identifying the sellers. the repeat offenders who are abetting the falsification of key information we consider to be gospel.
if the best we can do is spread the news around here, at least it's better than nothing. >>
I'm glad I knew about this place prior to getting the fake Montana. I've seen enough cards in my life to know it was wrong but didn't know how to prove it, I mean it was in a psa 10 holder. Funny thing is when I first called psa for help they told me to ask questions here before I took the time to send the card to them. It was a good learning experience for me as I read for hours about fake flips and altered holders. I feel pretty strongly I can spot a fake flip quickly now.
http://myworld.ebay.com/dgordo76
My current wish list:
https://forums.collectors.com/messageview.aspx?catid=27&threadid=952285&enterthread=y
Please pm me if you want to sell any of these cards.
Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
PSA has a lot at stake here........I'm really surprised they're not concerned about fakes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I hope that you all have reported the auction as fraudulent to eBay. >>
I did (twice), but I can tell you for a fact that it's very often a completely useless exercise. >>
After buying the fake montana that this board helped me with I can tell you that ebay and PSA were very helpful after the fact in getting my money back although ebay made me jump though more hoops than i would have thought necessary. But, neither psa nor ebay really seemed to care much beyond that. ebay wouldnt let me leave negative feedback for the seller, he still has perfect feedback and refused to ban him even after i gave them proof he knew it was a fake. I asked psa if they wanted info on the seller so they could do something about him, they never responded. I even notified the USPS to bring mail fraud charges and they told me that since I got my money back it wasnt worth it. Im not familiar with the section of the fraud element that says it cant be fraud if you get your money back....
Point is no one cares and as much as its ridiculous it really is up to collectors to police this stuff. >>
PSA has a lot at stake.........I'm really surprised they're not concerned about fakes.
<< <i>PSA has a lot at stake.........I'm really surprised they're not concerned about fakes. >>
They are concerned about fakes.
<< <i>
You have this card in hand? Are you the seller? >>
no I am not the seller, do you really think I am the seller and telling you it is a fake and then selling it .
the seller sent me pictures thru ebay and you can clearly see that light does not pass through the flip. If it was a single flip or the original, light would pass and you would see the psa logo that is on the back of the flip. I can't figure out how to save the pictures from the ebay message
<< <i>They are concerned about fakes. >>
+1
I can confirm that Joe Orlando is aware of and in the process of addressing this situation.
<< <i>
<< <i>They are concerned about fakes. >>
+1
I can confirm that Joe Orlando is aware of and in the process of addressing this situation. >>
GLAD to hear this!!!
I must be out of touch on this card as I thought PSA 10's were selling for around 10k
<< <i>Somebody bought the holder IMHO. I would have bid strong on that card were it not for the dreaded line and the T/B centering.
Dan I am not 100% sure that PSA even considers the line as a flaw. I agree it should not be a 10 but out of the two bird magic rookies per sheet one has the line.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Here you go...no print line.....
<< <i>Here you go...no print line.....
That is a beautiful card!
Here's mine. Guess it will have to do the 10s are out of my reach.
<< <i>
<< <i>Somebody bought the holder IMHO. I would have bid strong on that card were it not for the dreaded line and the T/B centering.
Dan I am not 100% sure that PSA even considers the line as a flaw. I agree it should not be a 10 but out of the two bird magic rookies per sheet one has the line. >>
I don't disagree with you. However I see it as a flaw and wouldn't buy that had it, btw, I think your 9 below is nicer than that goodwin 10