I need some help Please 1880-O NGC MS65 top pop Morgan$
lostincoins
Posts: 4,278 ✭
So here is the deal. I have been offered a 1880-O NGC MS65 Morgan Dollar that is the top pop for NGC in that grade and according to NGC census there are 27 in this grade and none graded higher than this coin. If someone can help me with the bid ask on the gray sheet I would really appreciate it. The other thing I would like to know, what if any premium would be expected for the top pop coin in an NGC holder. How would this coin be viewed in the NGC registry as I know it is not anywhere close to the registry here. I also have a question about crossing this coin over, on a crossover can youy request that the coin not be cracked out at grade only or can you do grade and pop also? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated thank you very much in advance.
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Comments
Yes you can cross at current grade, but don't hold your breath on that date and grade! What is it being offered to you for? How does it look? Do you have a picture?
<< <i>I would recommend that if you aren't familiar with the nuances of top pop markets and what it means to be in specific holders/markets/incremental grades, that you in no way should enter the market at that level. Ask your self who are you going to sell it to? If it is so easy why is he selling it to you? >>
In that kind of price range, the number of interested buyers will not be large. How long did the dealer have that coin for sale? Is it a retread in search of an unsophisticated buyer? What is its sales history (if there are auction records that can be tracked)? How will investment-minded collectors react to its current holder and what might its CAC bean potential, likelihood of crossing to PCGS, and upgrade prospects be? Issues like these matter, and should be considered when thinking about buying an expensive coin.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
If you want to know the rules about cross overs at PCGS call customer service.
If you want to know the gray sheet value buy the current gray sheet, which will cost you about $3 or $4.
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>I would recommend that if you aren't familiar with the nuances of top pop markets and what it means to be in specific holders/markets/incremental grades, that you in no way should enter the market at that level. Ask your self who are you going to sell it to? If it is so easy why is he selling it to you? >>
In that kind of price range, the number of interested buyers will not be large. How long did the dealer have that coin for sale? Is a retread in search of an unsophisticated buyer? What is its sales history (if there are auction records that can be tracked)? How will investment-minded collectors react to its current holder and what might its CAC bean potential, likelihood of crossing to PCGS, and upgrade prospects be? Issues like these matter, and should be considered when thinking about buying an expensive coin. >>
This would be why I was asking so as to better educate myself. That is the goal of this site correct, the sharing of knowledge. I was told about the coin and the seller knows I do not normally deal with coins at this level but figured what the hell. I actually appreciate the seller doing something to improve my position as they also figured I would be able to get some good and correct knowledge here. I like to learn and every person who collects coins or deals with coins was not born with the innate ability ability to know all things coins. Every person on this board had to ask questions and learn at some time even if you are top pop in your field such as crypto or TDN are with Trade Dollars.
Thank you to those that are willing to help people learn about coins and the coin market as it helps to build and improve our hobby and community.
As stated the coin is now sold to someone else so it might even be posted here in a couple of days considering what it is or those of you across the street also keep your eyes open. I would still like to learn more about these issues so that I may become better educated with the intricacies of how the hobby is currently moving. I have never really worried about grade or position in the past as the coins I purchase I did so because they were appealing to me as a collector, the plastic was not important but with many more people buying the plastic and grade given over the coin it self I figured this would be a good time to learn some new information and skills. If you want to be negative towards me and not help out that is your option, either way thank you for your participation.
values, resubmissions might account for 30-40% of the population. The coin might also be
over graded (a 64 or 64+). Was it submitted to CAC? The only way to make a sound decision
is to have coin in hand and some one who is an expert with the series next to you.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Yes sharing knowledge for education.....though not necessarily to walk someone through all the ins and outs of making big $$ deals that are beyond their current skills.
While essentially one could call a coin with a pop of 27 as a pop top.....how it compares to those other 26 coins is crucial. There's also an NGC 67 out there, 3 PCGS 65+, and one PCGS 66. So 5 pieces graded higher.
PCGS also has 32 MS65's. So that's potentially 60 coins in 65 grade (maybe half of those are different coins).
<< <i>What the coin looks like will also come into play
MJ >>
Absolutely. This decision is the kind that can hinge on a few tenths of a grade point. Knowing what is nice for the grade (and those +/- 1 point) is quite important, and this requires a lot of experience with actual coins in hand, not just images.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>This would be why I was asking so as to better educate myself. That is the goal of this site correct, the sharing of knowledge.
Yes sharing knowledge for education.....though not necessarily to walk someone through all the ins and outs of making big $$ deals that are beyond their current skills.
While technically one could call a coin with a pop of 27 (none higher) as a pop top.....how it compares to those other 26 coins is crucial. >>
Yep. I don't see any negativity in the responses to this thread.
<< <i>If you are going to buy that coin you need to understand (1) what an NGC 65 is worth, (2) whether that particular coin is worthy of the grade at NGC standards, and (3) why the coin is not in a PCGS holder. If you were someone who makes their living dealing in Morgans and playing the crack out game you would know the answer to those questions. If you do not know the answers you need to figure out the answer to the first question and second question and then presume that it is in an NGC holder because the current and past owners could not get into a PGCS 65 holder, so you need to ask yourself how likely it is that you will be successful.
If you want to know the rules about cross overs at PCGS call customer service.
If you want to know the gray sheet value buy the current gray sheet, which will cost you about $3 or $4.
CG >>
-I have already had help with the gray sheet and you are the first person I have seen tell someone on this board who asked for information on the gray sheet to go buy one, that is some great help.
-As to the coin crossing to to PCGS I asked here because people here usually know the answers, all you had to say if anything was that you have no idea instead of being a smart A** when someone asks a question on a board meant
for asking questions.
-I looked up auction results at multiple locations to see what these coins at this grade have traded for in the past so I do have a handle on that along with the gray sheet information which gave me a good idea of the spread from
lowest to highest in the NGC holder.
-As for the coin being crossed to PCGSas a necessary must that is just not creditable information you have provided. Not all collectors want all their coins in a PCGS holder as it is just plastic and some people are more concerned
with the coin it self. You may or may not be a plastic collector as that is your choice but not everyone thinks of the holder as the most important part of a coin.
- As to the coin being deserving of the MS65 grade to NGC standards that one is more obvious as it is graded by NGC as an MS65 none finer. With this being a tough grade to get I would think that NGC would not just hand out this grade arbitrarily I could be wrong on that but I do not think so.
Thank you for your attempt to help me with my questions it is appreciated.
<< <i>.....Yep. I don't see any negativity in the responses to this thread. >>
With an hour of research the OP could have answered many of their own questions and learned something in the process that "would stick with them." That would have been a better starting point for this thread.
If someone can help me with the bid ask on the gray sheet I would really appreciate it. The other thing I would like to know, what if any premium would be expected for the top pop coin in an NGC holder. How would this coin be viewed in the NGC registry as I know it is not anywhere close to the registry here. I also have a question about crossing this coin over, on a crossover can you request that the coin not be cracked out at grade only or can you do grade and pop also? ....
Currently I do not want to discuss what the coin is being offered to me for as I am still in the negotiating faze and that is why I have the questions on the population. The coin is supposedly top pop none finer but does have one tied with it. I have looked at auction results but it is not very often that the top pop coins change hands. NGC does not have any graded better that the coin being offered to me but PCGS does have a 65+ and 66.
It's not a top pop. And 28 others in the same grade provide plenty of comparisons. "Top pop, none finer but one tied with it"? That doesn't even make sense. Heritage archives have a number of these over the past 6 years. Yes, let's give all the information needed to make a buying decision without even seeing the coin while "the negotiating faze is underway."
Again Thanks for the help and may we all learn neat and interesting coin stuff every day.
<< <i>I would recommend that if you aren't familiar with the nuances of top pop markets and what it means to be in specific holders/markets/incremental grades, that you in no way should enter the market at that level. Ask your self who are you going to sell it to? If it is so easy why is he selling it to you? >>
Bingo. The upper level market is complicated, especially right now with some of the big guys holding their breath for Pogue, though I am not sure how much morgans are affected by this.
<< <i>If you are going to buy that coin you need to understand ...(3) why the coin is not in a PCGS holder. >>
There are a plenty of nice coins in other TPG slabs and even raw.
<< <i>What the coin looks like will also come into play
MJ >>
+ 1
Images would help the OP's cause greatly.
Buy some cheaper coins, learn how to grade, learn how the market really works, and then venture into shark infested waters (yep I'm watching Shark Tank)
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>
<< <i>If you are going to buy that coin you need to understand ...(3) why the coin is not in a PCGS holder. >>
There are a plenty of nice coins in other TPG slabs and even raw. >>
Not for long or at least not if they can help it. I will agree with you some people are incentivized and put nice coins in non-market preferred plastics at the detriment to the end user that is.
<< <i>If you are asking this forum for advice on a coin that is worth $10K-25K (and yes the coin in question has that price range based on quality) you should NOT be buying this coin.
Buy some cheaper coins, learn how to grade, learn how the market really works, and then venture into shark infested waters (yep I'm watching Shark Tank) >>
I get it, the OP is looking for a opportunity to make money while working from home and sees some people make what appears to be easy money. What he is missing is the people write their own parameters and apply them to existing market forces making a strategy up to fill a niche they have access to and what works for them often is non-transferable. They have a combination of natural talent, access and experience and I would wager not many learned much form cold questions poised to strangers. Even if there are one or two examples of this happening, I would expect that they already had big picture comprehension and were merely looking for a perspective or origin. It is clear he heard somewhere that quality sells but it doesn't appear he knows the difference between quality, liquidity and marketability. Chasing high grade coins is one thing but one must learn how to chase buyers as well and form a market strategy. Trust me, bland commemoratives and NGC Morgan's are not quality or liquid positions even if the core coin is solid.
The OP IMHO would need extensive exposure to both the general & advance knowledge about both numismatics and the market before dabbling into dealing with any money he was not prepared to lose. I would be extra careful in the current market, it isn't for beginners. The snark you are sensing is basically people tend to think someone who is thinking ( even if it is obviously unrealistic) about buying a 25k coins for resale should be the type of person giving advice and not soliciting it. One can only hope your business sense is better than your social. Only someone being daft couldn't understand why people groan at a novice asking for quick advice on how to make an elite transaction. It is a oxymoron
<< <i>I have already had help with the gray sheet and you are the first person I have seen tell someone on this board who asked for information on the gray sheet to go buy one, that is some great help. >>
You were contemplating buying a $25,000 coin and were too cheap to pony up $3 for a gray sheet. Are you related the guy who posted here about starting a coin dealership and asked if anyone would lend him a stapler? Or are you just an incredible shnorer.
<< <i>-As to the coin crossing to to PCGS I asked here because people here usually know the answers, all you had to say if anything was that you have no idea instead of being a smart A** when someone asks a question on a board meant for asking questions. >>
So where is your answer? Questions like this clutter the Board and often wind up with conflicting responses, all of which could be avoided by calling customer service.
<< <i>-As for the coin being crossed to PCGSas a necessary must that is just not creditable information you have provided. Not all collectors want all their coins in a PCGS holder as it is just plastic and some people are more concerned with the coin it self. You may or may not be a plastic collector as that is your choice but not everyone thinks of the holder as the most important part of a coin. >>
Excuse me but YOU are the one who asked about crossing the coin.
<< <i>as to the coin being deserving of the MS65 grade to NGC standards that one is more obvious as it is graded by NGC as an MS65 none finer. With this being a tough grade to get I would think that NGC would not just hand out this grade arbitrarily I could be wrong on that but I do not think so. >>
They handed out an MS67 grade to the Norweb 93-s after it had been woefully impaired through dipping. But believe whatever you want.
In the end if you found my remarks unhelpful then I suggest you give careful consideration to the thoughts of others posted here because you been given a lot very sound advice.
CG
Segoja's comment about learning how the numismatic market really works is very important, something that too few collectors spend much time caring about. In particular, buying coins as a collector/investor is MUCH easier than selling them.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>If you are going to buy that coin you need to understand ...(3) why the coin is not in a PCGS holder. >>
There are a plenty of nice coins in other TPG slabs and even raw. >>
Most coins in that price range usually find themselves in the PCGS office more than a few times. What do you think happened after the Newman auction? Everyone was a happy daisy with their coins being in NGC holders?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If you are going to buy that coin you need to understand ...(3) why the coin is not in a PCGS holder. >>
There are a plenty of nice coins in other TPG slabs and even raw. >>
Most coins in that price range usually find themselves in the PCGS office more than a few times. What do you think happened after the Newman auction? Everyone was a happy daisy with their coins being in NGC holders? >>
This is the ultimate effect but what is really at play is coin turnover and finding/adding value. Like water finding the lowest level, coins will find the most advantageous combination of perceived value vs liquidity. When someone buys a coin for resale they most often buy it from a source that maximized the previous return leaving the new owner needing to change the preconception of the coin or add value. They is a myriad of value combinations but many a coin goes to NGC for multiple reasons some being
-Break the provenance or auction history chain
-Looking for an upgrade due to differing standards
-economies of scale & promotions (Newman)
-end collector indifference
Truth be told many coins bounce back and forth between the two main TPG as people look for ways to make 2c, the whole model kind of needs at least two.
January 2015, PCGS MS65, $14,100 (Heritage)
August 2014, NGC MS65, $14,100 (Stack's Bowers)
April 2014, NGC MS65, $14,000 (Heritage)
April 2014, NGC MS65, $12,925 (Heritage)
Seems like the market puts these at $13-$15k right now.
It's very likely the coin will not cross either. It's probably already been tried.
<< <i>Everyone was a happy daisy with their coins being in NGC holders? >>
I certainly was.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
I wish Russ were around to put a capstone on it.
<< <i>I would recommend that if you aren't familiar with the nuances of top pop markets and what it means to be in specific holders/markets/incremental grades, that you in no way should enter the market at that level. Ask your self who are you going to sell it to? If it is so easy why is he selling it to you? >>
If you don't know that market, stay away.