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If we need PLUS+ refinement on mint state coins, why can't we use the existing granularity on circul

There were 11 possible grades for mint state coins, then the PLUS (+) designation was invented for further refinement and now there are 21 grades (no 70+)

The obvious answer is money, with big jumps in prices from say a 66 to a 67.
But there can be big jumps in circulated grades as well, say from a 35 to a 40.

So why can't we used the existing values, such as 36, 37, 38, and 39 instead of 35 or 40?

There are many gaps available for use for circulated coins.

Comments

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't rush it as if collectors keep embracing these new grading concepts a VF-37+ might be something that's seen in the near future?!?
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    It's coming just give it time. image
  • dogwooddogwood Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭✭
    You know of course, XF48 would be a very legitimate thing and I've seen F18 used in the past. (Actually Coast to Coast Coins does this)
    VF 35 fairly accurately describes an almost XF, or at least it should, so I'm not sold on VF38, but why not.
    One point degrees, not so much.
    Circ coins are different animals. I think most agree on the diff in luster or contact marks to separate 64-65-66, but try to set any standard or agreement in principal on a VF 32-33-34, and you're fishing for minnows.
    I like less complications in life.
    We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Limiting yourself to + and minus is so 2014. I want to see quadratic grading , factorial grading , even exponents ..... how about MS 69 to the 3rd power ?


    I think I'll stick with cardboard 2x2's image
  • A few companies do split grades, and a LOT of companies do this in their internal operations.

    That being said, I don't think there need to be more splits than there are now. We have plus grades from 45 on up, and there seems to be enough trouble with consistency as is.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,019 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why do we have 45+, 50+, 53+, 55+, and 58+, and not 48, 52, 54, 56, and 59?

    XF45, especially, has a lot of latitude in that some coins assigned that grade look like they're definitely AU and some just look like solid XFs.
  • All this reminds me of the talk of the 100 point system. Make it basically a percentage representation and you have a very easy straightforward way of looking at things. A MS100 would be equal to a coin that just came off the press being the first coin struck and landing on a pile of the softest material possible then slabbed on the spot. In other words MS 100 is perfect and MS1 would be the least perfect. Fairly simple but the hardest to institute in this hobby that does not like change. (does not like change that's funny)

    The other option is to convert over to a decimal system such as MS69.89 but that gets into a lot of numbers and confusion.

    I know that many of the oldtimers remember the simpler grading numbers but my belief is that a 100 point system is the easiest to deal with especially for YN and new people to the hobby. Get rid of all the designations such as AG, G, F, XF etc and just say my coin is MS 27 or my coin is MS 95 and be done with it. This gives a good workable range for coins without a need for plus designations or anything else. CAC and other quality for grade certification companies would still be able to do their thing on each and every grade making a vibrant an viable market that is much easier to understand. Hey guys I just got an 1886CC Morgan MS96 CAC for 94 money, easy see!
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭
    Youre right OP ..

    It is all opinion so by definition it CANT be this exact .. especially as it is proven to each and every person reading this forum every day through the endless GTG posts, the debates and discussions over why X coin graded Y and the constant discussion about cracked coins that now grade X+1 grade up or X+1 grade up PLUS ; the numerous references of Heritage auctions where a coin was in a 65 holder in 2010 and sold for $10000 and then the same coin is now a pop 1 in a 66 PLUS holder and just sold for multiples of the figure from just a year or two earlier - same coin - same TPG - one grade up or add a star, a plus, a PL or some other designation where the same 1/15 to 3/4 troy oz circular disc of metal resides in new plastic... What is equally amazing is someone may reference that the coin is now a pop x/y and yet there are an equal number of discussions about how woefully inaccurate pop reports are today due to all the crack-resubmit business models there are out there ... pop reports in many cases are off by hundreds of percents .. Heck in the recent post about the 50 cent store credit NGC is offering to return their labels someone mentioned having 200,000 of them - and no one even uses NGC these days ! How many PCGS labels have had a trip to the shredder the past 10 years !?! WOW !

    .. It goes on and on.. And all it does is further cement the theorem that grading never was, currently isn't, and never will be anything more than one "expert's" opinion on one given day. One given day where he may have forgot his contact lenses or maybe he was arguing with his wife, hungover, has the flu ....... And that same grader could view the same exact coin the next day and the result could very well be different. Therefore, to have such minute, such fine and subjective grading qualifiers (which by the way boil down to lots of MONEY) is irresponsible in my opinion;
    It has to be.

    OR - Is it a product of necessity is the mother of invention (The necessity being the need to come up with a gimmick to keep the revenue stream going - Feed the monster)

    PLUS (+) grading is yet another gimmick marketing has come up with to restore freshness and to refine (to borrow your term) the corporate bottom line .. The addition of every integer from 1 to 70 will likely be the next stage (evolution coming full circle to those pointing out the era of using XF48 grades for a period of time in the past and actually still done by some today) ..
    In fact I declare this day already here - Just not with TPG grading yet (ie Grading {or fishing?} for dollars) .. A significant percentage of dealers grade their coins "VF+" , F/VF, Gem AU or XF ++++ .. these could equate to VF-37, F18, AU59+ (plus) and XF49.9 respectively.

    Surely after all 70 integers within the modern grading spectrum are used, evolution will likely bring a 100 point scale ...

    The evolution of grading is just a way to maintain a consistent revenue stream effectively enabling the TPG to start another fresh round from scratch as the virus spreads within the coin communities that they "must resubmit their coins for the new-style grading as it will mean more money if they get the right grade (ie today's AU58+ or the like).

    Couple this phenomenon with grade-flation and the TPG have found a way to get collectors to continue to submit the finite number of gradable coins that exist in the universe that incestuously trade hands in a circular manner por infinitude, infinitely .. In a nutshell, within a period of time - call it 5-10 years, the vast majority of gradable coins that will be graded are graded . If grading were a perfect science there would be so little to grade these days the TPG would have long been out of business .. Thus to keep the revenue stream going, gimmicks and built in inexactness and grey areas must be not only achieved - but these concepts must be "sold" to the collecting public. They must win their trust that this is the way it is - and then convince them to spend more money to resubmit their coins for the new plus grades - or to resubmit your coins for reconsideration - RECONSIDERATION: Resubmit YOUR coins to them - so they can regrade the coins that you already paid them to grade once. They not only charge you a second time, for their initial mistake - but they also collect a commission for the uptick in value. If this is not a conflict of interest I have no idea what one is. Sorry I digress.... Or to resubmit your coins to keep trying until you get the grade you want ,,, and on and on it goes. We have all bought it. Hook--line and sinker .. Congrats !!


    Economic Inflation with a dash of Darwinian natural evolution on full display
    imageimage
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most of the time there's no rhyme or reason to a grade. Whether the luster or condition is at some level or the strike.......to uphold a standard for a grade. Most coins you see have great luster and/or color but the condition and strike have seemingly failed.

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>RECONSIDERATION: Resubmit YOUR coins to them - so they can regrade the coins that you already paid them to grade once. They not only charge you a second time, for their initial mistake - but they also collect a commission for the uptick in value. >>

    This statement assumes there is a "correct" grade. TPGs do not determine a coin's grade, but rather provide an opinion of the grade at that time. Since grading standards do not exist, only guidelines exist, each grade is "correct" when determined and reflects the opinion of the grader(s). If we wish to rant on about the greed of grading, we need to be sure to include substantial blame on those who seek that "uptick" in value ... the dealers and collectors who submit their coins in hopes of "making" a higher grade. The TPGs provide a consulting service, that is all. They offer services and we purchase those services ... as if those services were oxygen itself.
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces


  • << <i>

    << <i>RECONSIDERATION: Resubmit YOUR coins to them - so they can regrade the coins that you already paid them to grade once. They not only charge you a second time, for their initial mistake - but they also collect a commission for the uptick in value. >>

    This statement assumes there is a "correct" grade. TPGs do not determine a coin's grade, but rather provide an opinion of the grade at that time. Since grading standards do not exist, only guidelines exist, each grade is "correct" when determined and reflects the opinion of the grader(s). If we wish to rant on about the greed of grading, we need to be sure to include substantial blame on those who seek that "uptick" in value ... the dealers and collectors who submit their coins in hopes of "making" a higher grade. The TPGs provide a consulting service, that is all. They offer services and we purchase those services ... as if those services were oxygen itself. >>



    This is well stated and brings the point that it is us the customer that keeps the TPGs going not the other way around. Most changes instituted by the TPGs are done so due to customer influence and request. They are a service and we opt to use them how can we place all blame on them for our own greed? I have submitted coins and been unhappy with the opinion I received and very simply removed the coin from the holder and enjoyed the coin for the coin it self or sold it the same way. Ah greed is such a driving force in everyone's life, we covet that which others have as without being shown that we need something we would have very simple needs.

    Vote for the 100 point system it is very easy to understand ( donations to the ad campaign election support system for the improvement of the numbering system is a grass roots movement funded by nobody and can be found at: the100pointsofmsgradingwhichwillbemoreeasiertounderstandforuspeoplpewhodontunderstandsthecurrentsystemgoodsasitisconfusingandwedontlikeitatall.thisissill.fake.crazyness
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,389 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not we. My needs are met with a proper bid on a coin in a 2x2 or worse… in a shoe box. image

    Some things are blown out of proportion like a woman on her menstrual cycle.
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭


    << <i>This statement assumes there is a "correct" grade. TPGs do not determine a coin's grade, but rather provide an opinion of the grade at that time. Since grading standards do not exist, only guidelines exist, each grade is "correct" when determined and reflects the opinion of the grader(s). If we wish to rant on about the greed of grading, we need to be sure to include substantial blame on those who seek that "uptick" in value ... the dealers and collectors who submit their coins in hopes of "making" a higher grade. The TPGs provide a consulting service, that is all. They offer services and we purchase those services ... as if those services were oxygen itself.

    << <i>

    Thank you Astrorat - you made my point of my post ... As I stated - I digressed on that topic .. But the point was gimmicks and methods to get collectors to resubmit (gibve them more money) .. and that is exactly what that service is ... Prey on the inherent weakness within the hobby (greed) by motivating the would be submitter with the possibility of higher grades (more money) ... But you reiterated in two sentences exactly the point of my argument
    imageimage
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    The 70 point system is here to stay. How many 10s of millions of coins are currently graded in slabs under the current system? The level of granularity that a 100 point system would provide is not worth the effort of changing the entire grading system. If you think about it, the 100 point system really only applies in large measure to circulated coins. The upper end of the scale is presently well served with the current grading system using the plus designations in combination with the CAC bean.

    Modern coins have zero need for a 100 point system. Now if you have a 1799 Bust dollar that you think should be an F18, that is a different story. If we were starting over in applying a numerical grading system, a 100 point system clearly makes the most sense, but that is now where we are.

    IMHO the cost and shock to the system during a conversion period would far outweigh any possible benefit.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭
    No disrespect Deep coin - but your thinking is dinosauric ... If you think change doesnt happen I cant say any more .. if you think they won't change the system because milions of coins are already graded - I think that is the reason they WOULD change it - millions of more coins to grade to keep the revenue coming in - once they think of a way to convince the vast majority of collectors that "the hobby needs it", I believe it will (or something akin to it) will happen
    imageimage
  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why the "+" then? Why not just use the decimal point that is already there (actually the 3 digit grade)? We can't waste a lot of energy about how we got here. (there is an actual link to the limitation to how big we could build some space shuttle parts to the size of wagon wheels in the Roman period). The point is, as the need occurs, we almost always adapt what we are already using and seldom throw-out and start new.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • TPG's would make so much money on resubmissions by even a few more grades and a few more areas for plus signs… it's for sure coming.
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭
    CAC is a by-product of the point I made ...
    Due to the inexact nature of grading - a service has capitalized on the inherent inconsistencies of grading .. People pay for yet another subjective opinion thatcould fluctuate from day to day.

    Anything to promote an exchange of dollars from you to CAC
    imageimage
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was going to patent application pending this one at the end of last month.... image

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,631 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It only works for Unc coins - when the +, the CAC sticker, or the next grade up means a lot of $$$ one way or the other. If a plus gives you "finest known" status then you will resubmit lots of times trying to get it.

    A F13 will never be worth more than a F12 coin unless the collector base expands considerably and there is more competition at that grade level. So until there is some $$$ involved there is no reason for the dealers or services to worry about it.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It only works for Unc coins - when the +, the CAC sticker, or the next grade up means a lot of $$$ one way or the other. If a plus gives you "finest known" status then you will resubmit lots of times trying to get it.

    A F13 will never be worth more than a F12 coin unless the collector base expands considerably and there is more competition at that grade level. So until there is some $$$ involved there is no reason for the dealers or services to worry about it. >>




    The + is on higher Circ grades. Could the numbers not change instead? Consider it a philosophical question.



    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions

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