What is the deal on the Judd-1a?

planonit

Anybody explain give me the story on this pattern variety? I looked at PCGS and I see a Pop of 1?
Ever been to sale? Pictures of it anywhere?

Thanks

LoveMyLiberty

1792 Silver Center Cent Pattern J-1

valente151

Read this. Heritage did a good job with the Partrick coins, I recommend picking up a copy of the catalog.

Edited to add: Between reading the Partrick catalog and viewing coins at FUN, as well as being able to explore the 18th century patterns in the Smithsonian vault this summer, I have fallen in love with the issues. They are fascinating IMO.

Sunshine Rare Coins

sumnom

I would really like to see "Liberty, parent of science and industry" be the motto on US coinage.

topstuf

What about "Liberty or Pensions"

Lakesammman

Seeing the J1a was a real highlight of the Partrick auction preview.

CaptHenway

I politely challenge the assertion that the piece was made without the silver plug. Judging from the indentation around the hole on the obverse, I would say that the plug was there when the piece was struck, but later came out, with or without help.

TD

FredWeinberg

TD - I agree with you completely.

It's very obvious that the plug was there,
and came out of the obv. 'hole', due to the
wider, pressed area around the hole; just
compare it to the reverse hole.....

AMRC

<< <i>I politely challenge the assertion that the piece was made without the silver plug. Judging from the indentation around the hole on the obverse, I would say that the plug was there when the piece was struck, but later came out, with or without help.

TD >>



Agree. and therefore technically it should be a details grade.

Analyst

Capt. Henway: <<I politely challenge the assertion that the piece was made without the silver plug. Judging from the indentation around the hole on the obverse, I would say that the plug was there when the piece was struck, but later came out, with or without help.>>

AMRC: <<Agree. and therefore technically it should be a details grade>>

A plug, if it was there, could have come out before the planchet was struck. Besides, do we know how the crevice for the silver plug was fashioned? It would seem that room would be first made before silver was hammered inside.

If our friends ATS did elemental testing, maybe they could enlighten us regarding presence or absence of traces of silver, especially in that area?

Valente: <<Heritage did a good job with the Partrick coins, I recommend picking up a copy of the catalog>>

I agree that there is a good deal of useful and interesting material regarding these patterns in Heritage catalogues. I have, though, written about them from a more independent perspective:

1792 Silver Center Copper Cent Pattern Brings $1.15 Million

The Fabulous Eric P. Newman Collection, part 11: Auction Results for pre-1793 coins, patterns and tokens

LoveMyLiberty

You mean this one?

CaptHenway

Yes, thank you. Is the weight known?

LoveMyLiberty

<< <i>Yes, thank you. Is the weight known? >>




1792 P1C One Cent, Judd-1a, Pollock-1a, MS62 Red and Brown NGC. 72.3 grains

This is the Partrick coin.

The Frank Stewart planchets found are:

1. Independence National Historical Park inventory no. 9249. 5.6 grams (86.4 grains), diameter 22mm, thickness 2mm. Plain edge.
2. Independence National Historical Park inventory no. 9250. 4.9 grams (75.6 grains), diameter 21mm, thickness 2mm. Partially reeded edge.

Weiss

My completely meritless opinion is that that the edges of the hole would be more smooshed if the plug had not been there at striking. They look pretty crisp to me. And if the plug was conical as was indicated in the Capt'n's thread about the purity of these early plugs, then having it pop out after--even immediately after--striking seems like it is at least a strong possibility.

JohnHarper

A silver-center-cent should, by statute, contain 66 grains of copper and 3.25 grains of silver for a total of 69.25 grains. The Partrick sale catalog gives the weight of the Judd-1a piece as 72.3 grains, and that without the silver. For comparison, the Garrett piece weights 70.5 grains and the Norweb piece weighs 69.9 grains.

CaptHenway

So the weights are too irregular to prove anything. THanks.

MrEureka

FWIW, it seems to me that the only way for the Mint to have made these pieces would have been to punch a hole in a planchet, insert a plug that was just a bit longer than the thickness of the coin, tap down both sides of the plug (to keep the plug in place while it was struck, and thereafter), and then strike it.

As for the Partrick piece, it looks like the plug was not inserted properly, so there was no silver to tap down on the reverse. And at some point later, the plug simply popped out. I don't see how else it could have happened.