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For those of us who like to debate who was the greatest athlete of all time.
1970s
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in Sports Talk
Look at the NHL all time point leaders. Is there any other sport where one player outdistances himself so much from the rest of the field ?
1 Wayne Gretzky 2,857
2 Mark Messier 1,887
3 Gordie Howe 1,850
4 Ron Francis 1,798
5 JAROMIR JAGR 1,781
6 Marcel Dionne 1,771
7 Steve Yzerman 1,755
8 Mario Lemieux 1,723
9 Joe Sakic 1,641
10 Phil Esposito 1,590
11 Ray Bourque 1,579
12 Mark Recchi 1,533
13 Paul Coffey 1,531
14 Stan Mikita 1,467
15 Teemu Selanne 1,457
16 Bryan Trottier 1,425
17 Adam Oates 1,420
18 Doug Gilmour 1,414
19 Dale Hawerchuk 1,409
20 Jari Kurri 1,398
21 Luc Robitaille 1,394
22 Brett Hull 1,391
23 Mike Modano 1,374
24 John Bucyk 1,369
25 Brendan Shanahan 1,354
1 Wayne Gretzky 2,857
2 Mark Messier 1,887
3 Gordie Howe 1,850
4 Ron Francis 1,798
5 JAROMIR JAGR 1,781
6 Marcel Dionne 1,771
7 Steve Yzerman 1,755
8 Mario Lemieux 1,723
9 Joe Sakic 1,641
10 Phil Esposito 1,590
11 Ray Bourque 1,579
12 Mark Recchi 1,533
13 Paul Coffey 1,531
14 Stan Mikita 1,467
15 Teemu Selanne 1,457
16 Bryan Trottier 1,425
17 Adam Oates 1,420
18 Doug Gilmour 1,414
19 Dale Hawerchuk 1,409
20 Jari Kurri 1,398
21 Luc Robitaille 1,394
22 Brett Hull 1,391
23 Mike Modano 1,374
24 John Bucyk 1,369
25 Brendan Shanahan 1,354
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Grandpa tells me red grange all around athlete.
Hmmm..Bo knows..
Is there anyone play today that can score points like those guys? The late 70's through the mid 90's were awesome for scoring. Nowadays no one comes close unless some coach figures out how to make offense work again. Or some rule change to the goal size or goalie pad size or something.
There are so many 50 goal scorers not even on that list .
it makes me sad watching Hockey now , that whole element is just gone from the game. It's so damn boring I don't even care half the time to put a game on.
I went years without missing a single Bruins game I don't even watch part of 20 games a year now.
<< <i>Look at the NHL all time point leaders. Is there any other sport where one player outdistances himself so much from the rest of the field ?
1 Wayne Gretzky 2,857
2 Mark Messier 1,887
3 Gordie Howe 1,850
4 Ron Francis 1,798
5 JAROMIR JAGR 1,781
6 Marcel Dionne 1,771
7 Steve Yzerman 1,755
8 Mario Lemieux 1,723
9 Joe Sakic 1,641
10 Phil Esposito 1,590
11 Ray Bourque 1,579
12 Mark Recchi 1,533
13 Paul Coffey 1,531
14 Stan Mikita 1,467
15 Teemu Selanne 1,457
16 Bryan Trottier 1,425
17 Adam Oates 1,420
18 Doug Gilmour 1,414
19 Dale Hawerchuk 1,409
20 Jari Kurri 1,398
21 Luc Robitaille 1,394
22 Brett Hull 1,391
23 Mike Modano 1,374
24 John Bucyk 1,369
25 Brendan Shanahan 1,354 >>
for career counting stats, sure. No question Gretzky is the clear favorite. Points per game is a different story where Gretzky was a 1.92 PPG producer while Mario Lemieux was 1.88. One can easily offset that minor difference by noting that Lemieux at least played some of his career in an era when forwards actually played some defense. You'll find plenty of hockey fans who would take a Hodgkin's Disease-free Mario Lemieux over Gretzky. I'm one of those people. The guy was 6'4 and 235 pounds and skated better than Gretzky. Lemieux was also a better goal scorer (.75 goals per game as opposed to .60 for Gretzky).
Is there anyone play today that can score points like those guys? The late 70's through the mid 90's were awesome for scoring.
of course it was...forwards peeled off at the blueline and let defensemen and a goalie handle everything back then. Now most forwards all play some semblance of defense whether it's suffocating puck carriers or at least getting into passing and shooting lanes. Centers all have to play 200 feet now which is why it's become a position of scarcity to find competent players who are above average in both ends. Gretzky spent his entire career playing 140 feet because that's simply how it was for players of his ilk in his day. I don't see it as any less entertaining than watching Tom Brady or Broncos era Peyton Manning toss 3-7 yard passes seemingly 95% of the time. Playing the percentages and ball control and maintaining possession and all. It's not any different in various sports.
<< <i>Can't really determine who was better between Wayne and Mario with such a big difference in games played. >>
And if you leave Bobby Orr out of the discussion, how sure are you that you've even identified the best hockey player, let alone the greatest athlete?
<< <i>Look at the NHL all time point leaders. Is there any other sport where one player outdistances himself so much from the rest of the field ?
1 Wayne Gretzky 2,857
2 Mark Messier 1,887
3 Gordie Howe 1,850
4 Ron Francis 1,798
5 JAROMIR JAGR 1,781
6 Marcel Dionne 1,771
7 Steve Yzerman 1,755
8 Mario Lemieux 1,723
9 Joe Sakic 1,641
10 Phil Esposito 1,590
11 Ray Bourque 1,579
12 Mark Recchi 1,533
13 Paul Coffey 1,531
14 Stan Mikita 1,467
15 Teemu Selanne 1,457
16 Bryan Trottier 1,425
17 Adam Oates 1,420
18 Doug Gilmour 1,414
19 Dale Hawerchuk 1,409
20 Jari Kurri 1,398
21 Luc Robitaille 1,394
22 Brett Hull 1,391
23 Mike Modano 1,374
24 John Bucyk 1,369
25 Brendan Shanahan 1,354 >>
Numbers-yes he is far ahead of everyone, skill wise -no
He wasn't anywhere close to the "athlete" that Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe were (especially Orr). Wayne disappeared on defense. He never got hit. I love Wayne, but these numbers are very misleading if you are calling him the greatest athlete. There was never a better hockey player than Bobby Orr. His +/- in 9 full seasons was higher than Gretzky's was in a 20 year career. That's dominance. If you want to call him the greatest offensive hockey player then fine, but he is not the greatest "athlete" in hockey. Bobby Orr won offensive and defensive titles in the same season multiple times. That's the greatest player right there. JMO
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<< <i>Can't really determine who was better between Wayne and Mario with such a big difference in games played. >>
And if you leave Bobby Orr out of the discussion, how sure are you that you've even identified the best hockey player, let alone the greatest athlete? >>
it would also be pretty silly to try and nail down the best "athlete" in hockey when athleticism doesn't necessarily translate to the broad hockey skill set. You can be a fast skater without being a naturally quick runner. You can have a great shot but if it can be timed with a sundial it's going to get blocked in today's game. You can have raw strength but it's not necessarily going to translate into anything on the ice unless you're a goon or play a net-front game. It's more important to be a strong skater like Marian Hossa - meaning a combination of speed and the ability to control the puck in traffic while maintaining one's speed while fending off defenders, and that skill is a combination of a lot of assets like speed, strength, balance, coordination etc. You can look at a guy like Phil Kessel and see his dumpy looking doughy frame and then watch him beat Tyler Seguin end to end while also possessing arguably the quickest (shot) release in the world. Bobby Hull, Richard and Beliveau were more dynamic offensive players than Gordie Howe. Does that make them better athletes? Paul Coffey was a great skater...but he was a great north/south skater because he used the narrowest skate blade you'll ever see a player use. So he couldn't cut/weave east/west like Housley or Brian Campbell can. Equipment also plays a role...and even more importantly than that, the game isn't the same when Orr or Howe or those guys were around. The average shift back then could range 1.30-2 minutes. The average shift now is 45 seconds. It's an all out continual sprint.
Orr's peak entirely ran during the original expansion era and into the WHA. Not exactly the height of competition. I'm not trying to beat Orr down, but what if Orr's career overlapped with the dead-puck era ('93-'05) with the all out neutral zone trap and obstruction? That would curb some of his freelancing. So wouldn't that essentially make Orr a moderately better version of Scott Niedermayer? Maybe Niedermayer with a better shot? I think it's highly possible, but then again, I also hold Niedermayer in pretty high regard so I don't consider that a slight. I guess if you're talking a package of offensive production at the NHL level along with above average defense and some pure athleticism without adjusting for era, then sure, he's probably right there at the top. But when I think of players who if they were to be dropped into this current era, I think Lemieux's skill set would translate better than the others. He'd have to play better defense now, obviously, but that can be taught. You can't teach 6'4 235 with those boots and possession skills that would trump most any current or former player. Besides that, I'm not convinced that the best athlete that I've seen on the ice wasn't a goaltender....ie Hasek. But even then he didn't have the puck-handling skills that Michelin Brodeur or Hextall had and obviously no offense so....
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<< <i>Can't really determine who was better between Wayne and Mario with such a big difference in games played. >>
And if you leave Bobby Orr out of the discussion, how sure are you that you've even identified the best hockey player, let alone the greatest athlete? >>
Orr was someone special, did things no one else did. Too bad he had injury problems or he might have been hands down the best of all time.
Bobby Orr was the best defensive player
Neither were the greatest athlete of all time
My 2 cents
<< <i>Is there anyone play today that can score points like those guys? The late 70's through the mid 90's were awesome for scoring. Nowadays no one comes close unless some coach figures out how to make offense work again. Or some rule change to the goal size or goalie pad size or something.
There are so many 50 goal scorers not even on that list .
it makes me sad watching Hockey now , that whole element is just gone from the game. It's so damn boring I don't even care half the time to put a game on.
I went years without missing a single Bruins game I don't even watch part of 20 games a year now. >>
I am not sad watching today's game - I still love watching hockey. I've got NHL Gamecenter and have watched every Red Wings game so far this year. It's a wildly different game today than it was 25-35 years ago, no doubt about it. As mentioned above, EVERYBODY plays defense now. Everybody blocks shots. The players are bigger. There's more congestion. Those three things mean fewer shots even get through. Goalies are a million times better now. You very rarely see the 40-footer going in with the goalie awkwardly stumbling around like you used to. Goalies are also bigger and so cover a lot more of the net than before. And for all players the equipment is better and lighter. That means blocking shots is safer. That means goalies can move faster and don't slow down in the 3rd period of a game after sweating for 40 minutes. And so on.
Having said all that, I *do* miss the offense of the 80s and early 90s. I'm not necessarily looking for a return of the no-defense Oilers scoring 7 every night but I would like more offense. To accomplish that, I think the NHL should increase the size of the goal. Goalies are bigger, etc. With tall guys in the goal, players simply have less net to shoot for than ever before. Adding 6-12" in height would punish goalies who drop to their knees immediately and would give shooters something to work with. Then make the net, say, 2 feet wider. Give the guys something to work with again.
<< <i>You'll find plenty of hockey fans who would take a Hodgkin's Disease-free Mario Lemieux over Gretzky. I'm one of those people. >>
So am I. I love Wayne - he was an amazing player and was incredibly nice when I met him. But I'm still taking Mario over him. They have nearly the same points per game and Mario played under waaaaaaaaaay tougher conditions. I mean, 3 years off after Hodgkins, and he comes back and puts up 1.77 points a game? In a year when only 2 guys had 100 points? Unreal. And, as you mentioned, Mario was a better goal scorer. Wayne the last several years of his career basically stopped shooting, scoring 15-20 goals a year. Meanwhile, Mario never really stopped.
As for Orr, I've only seen a few highlights of him so I obviously can't say for sure, but I can't help but think his career would not even be remotely the same if he'd played in the 90s. His +/- numbers are remarkable to be sure but are really a product of the times. His season of +124 is awesome but was almost matched by Larry Robinson. His other great seasons don't stand out that much among other top seasons for that era. It's pretty telling that, among the top 60 individual +/- seasons, only *one* has occurred in the last 28 years (Vladdy Konstantinov in 1995/96).
Any of those three guys could play on my team anytime though
<< <i> Adding 6-12" in height would punish goalies who drop to their knees immediately and would give shooters something to work with. Then make the net, say, 2 feet wider. Give the guys something to work with again. >>
Would you be cool with raising the NBA nets by 6 or 12"?
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<< <i>.
As for Orr, I've only seen a few highlights of him so I obviously can't say for sure, but I can't help but think his career would not even be remotely the same if he'd played in the 90s. His +/- numbers are remarkable to be sure but are really a product of the times. His season of +124 is awesome but was almost matched by Larry Robinson. His other great seasons don't stand out that much among other top seasons for that era. It's pretty telling that, among the top 60 individual +/- seasons, only *one* has occurred in the last 28 years (Vladdy Konstantinov in 1995/96).
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Let's not forget Orr won 8 straight Norris trophies as the leagues best defenseman while doing what he did offensively. As for Mario, great scorer but the Pens were scored on in a big way when he was on the ice, a minus rating in 7 seasons is just a horrific stat for a player of his magnitude. The sad part is that he had a +115 for his whole career and Orr had a +124 in just one season. Hands down I would choose Orr over anyone when starting a team. I am assured that my team will score and will rarely be scored against with him on the ice. The worst part is that he did all this on bad knees. Imagine if he had healthy knees his whole career. Here's a pic of an early Orr just getting started.
That isn't to suggest that Orr was a passenger in that 70-71 season, but I mean Esposito scored 76 goals, Bucyk scored 51, Hodge 43 and every other forward on the team had 20-35 goals. It's just how that era was and it would be impossible to drop him into this era and think he would be the same player when he wouldn't be facing a myriad of guys who just burned through a half of a pack of lung darts during intermission let alone having to face today's goalies whose pads take up 70-75% of the net.....in addition to the defensive systems all teams run. Heck if Orr was on this current Bruins roster they would have already traded him like Seguin and Kessel because he wouldn't fit their Ambian induced defensive system. At the very least he'd be reeled in substantially in terms of his freelancing and pinching in. That's why I brought up Scott Niedermayer as I think that's what he'd have been in the '94-present era. An elite puck rusher who was well above average defensively. Maybe Orr was a better passer, maybe he had a better shot/release, I don't know. But he would be playing within a system and collared today, that's for certain.
<< <i>
<< <i> Adding 6-12" in height would punish goalies who drop to their knees immediately and would give shooters something to work with. Then make the net, say, 2 feet wider. Give the guys something to work with again. >>
Would you be cool with raising the NBA nets by 6 or 12"? >>
An interesting idea. Would certainly cut down on dunking and force guys to shoot. Haven't really thought about it and don't watch enough basketball to care.
In the case of the NHL, the increased size of goalies has definitely hampered scoring.
<< <i>Martin Brodeur outdistances many goalies based on numbers alone in many categories. >>
Primarily due to his longevity and his team's defense. He also has the most losses ever and allowed the most goals. #21 in save percentage. Hasek was better.