Same thing happened in a very similar fashion about 10 years ago on ebay. Seller provided pictures and not coins. Had a little fine print similar to this yokel's as well. That guy/gal ended up in prison for federal crimes involving the PO....something about "across state lines".
Is is likely this guy/gal will be serving time one of these days too.
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
If the scammer had only listed the auctions in the "poster" category, he would have a leg to stand on. However, by listing it in the Morgan dollar category as well, he's representing that it's a Morgan dollar. It's simply a fraud, and not a particularly clever one, either. Burying the disclosure language in vague terms at the end of an extremely long description is another indicator of fraud here.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
From the Merriam-Webster dictionary... undoubtedly the "legal" definition will be substantially the same:
FRAUD (noun) : the crime of using dishonest methods to take something valuable from another person .... : a copy of something that is meant to look like the real thing in order to trick people
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
I would think this is mail fraud of the lowest order. Write a letter to USPS reporting the fraud. Also contact Heritage about copy right / fraud. In checking his listings he has nothing for sale, has ebay shut him down. All the negs from people which got scammed, and big ticket stuff.
Since he scammed you and others. Have you met with an attorney to pursue this, threaten him? I think at this point he has gone to ground anyhow. This is something some professional thief / con man would do. I wonder too if ebay is liable for having this conduit of fraud happen on their site. Can you get him on phone? I would have someone call him and threaten him with Federal felony theft. Unfortunately he is probably long gone to be taking any calls (exit strategy) - $200 K he could be retired to anywhere. He most likely could be a member of organized crime and this is just another day at the office. This operation could have been planned by a group with estimated revenue / exit strategy.
This whole thing makes me sick - I have certified coins I put up at auction recently at slightly less than CDN Bid and many of them did not get buyers and bidders and this guy is openly stealing from bidders with people just handing him their money when they can get an honest deal somewhere else.
Sucks. There was a guy who did this same thing when the PlayStation 4 came out...just sent the winners photos of the game system.
"Man will never be perfect until he learns to create and destroy; he does know how to destroy, and that is half the battle.” - Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo
<< <i>Does anyone have the address of this thief? >>
Yeah, I wonder if the packages have a return address. The seller has a big, brass pair to ship pictures, so he may have put his actual address on the package
He probably skipped out of the country by now. Maybe the FBI asked ebay to keep the account open to see if they could track him. I cannot believe that his account is still open. Who knows what happened is anyones guess. Have you contacted ebay?
I bet this guy is pretty nervous, not everyone is going to sit back and let Ebay and the Law handle this. Willing to bet there's at least one trying to hunt down the seller.
<< <i>I bet this guy is pretty nervous, not everyone is going to sit back and let Ebay and the Law handle this. Willing to bet there's at least one trying to hunt down the seller. >>
His eBay account has been open for 9 years. He has what appears to be stellar performance for all but about the last month. Some (albeit remote) other possible scenarios. Perhaps the original account owner was persuaded to sell the account and the new owner committed the fraud. Perhaps the account owner died or became incapacitated, someone had knowledge of this and hijacked the account. Another scenario might be the account owner had put this plan in place several years ago. Build up a Top Rated Seller reputation, with great feedback and reputation. Then in a matter of 30 days sell 300K +/- worth of nonexistent goods/coins and disappear.
One of the scary things here is it is not that difficult to open/acquire eBay/PayPal accounts with bogus information, then take the money and run. Occam's razor would lead me to believe that the perpetrator is not that smart and is just someone who just got desperate, lazy or greedy.
Needless to say, this will be very interesting to find out the real story.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Doesn't make any difference at all that s/he describes the size of an "image" or "poster", (some listings I checked used one word, some the other.)
Nowhere in the listings did they actually state they were selling an image or poster. Every indication pointed to a coin being offered; the category, (listed in two, but one was coins,) the description, the title, etc.
Simply mentioning the size of an image/poster down in the "terms and conditions", would not give any 'reasonable and prudent person' a reason to believe they were buying only an image. (Though confusing, it actually reads as though it's quite possible they may have been referencing the size of the image that was used to show the coin in the listing. Nowhere in the listing did they state that you get an image, nowhere.) Everything stated clearly represents a slabbed coin being offered. >>
+1. Back when I practiced law, this is exactly how I would have analyzed the issue. The judicial system will most likely look at it exactly the same way.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
"The poster sizes for the sale of this lot may vary,but approximately are two hundred ten millimeters on two hundred ninety seven millimeters."
This was buried at the bottom of the listing description, which was basically a history of the Morgan dollar from Wikipedia. This seems really deceptive to me, since it doesn't really say specifically that you're bidding on a poster. I can totally understand why so many thought they were bidding on a real coin.
As a rule, I generally don't bid on listings where there is a ton of crap in the description that doesn't pertain specifically to the actual item offered for sale, and little or nothing about the item itself.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
How about people getting taken for 20 grand or more thinking they were taking advantage of this dumb seller, who was listing these awesome coins in art rather than the coin category?! When you go back, many coins, (if they really had been coins), were selling for way too cheap. Greed kicks in and next thing you know, you are out 20 grand.
I hope they get their money back, but a little due diligence is in order when spending that kind of dough. He was selling garbage coins for a buck or two in January.
To OP and others ripped by this guy...if you paid with PP funded by a card, file a chargeback through the card company if all else fails.
Assuming this isn't a stolen/hacked account and is just a case of a scummy seller- I'm sure this guy's going to try to hide behind the fact that he listed them in the Art-Posters section...which might make it interesting if/when litigation commences. As to the images, assuming Heritage owns copyright to the images (they have a blanket copyright statement and "all rights reserved" at the bottom of their pages) they could initiate an action against him but cost/benefit wise they might not want to hassle with litigating it. Other sellers have stolen HA images in the past and basically the only things that usually happen are that the images are removed and the account deleted.
So has anyone ever bought from TPQCOLLECT over the past years and perhaps knows his actual address? I assume if you received an email with a picture then you would have a email header and the actual address that the email was sent could be figured out.... if this person did this to this many people then I assume someone will knock on his door pretty soon
If the scammer simply right clicked and saved a Heritage image for his own auction, you may find metadata in the image that proves the image is not of a poster, but is a copyrighted image. So in the seller's case, he would have not posted images of the actual item.
Regardless, there is still seller protection and you should be able to open a case and return the item if you are unsatisfied.
This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer.
Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
While 200k-300k is certainly a lot of money .... is it the kind of money where you would pack up everything you have built up....and just run off?
Just saying because several years ago when I was holding a million dollars in the bank for someone the attorney asked me the same question and my answer was a million would not be enough for me to just run off
<< <i>While 200k-300k is certainly a lot of money .... is it the kind of money where you would pack up everything you have built up....and just run off?
Just saying because several years ago when I was holding a million dollars in the bank for someone the attorney asked me the same question and my answer was a million would not be enough for me to just run off
How about you? >>
$1,000,000.000 USD in some countries is quite a substantial amount of money to live off of if you are single.
<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's.
<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's.
Saturday I reported this via the NumismaticCrimes.org website (I was scammed for $1000+ / 1893cc Morgan) and received a reply back from Doug (ex-law enforcement & founder of website) saying he would contact eBay today (apparently he has contacts beyond the worthless customer support reps located off-shore).
<< <i>Fraud nullifies all contracts even if it is "constructive" fraud which no one in their right mind would accept. i.e. if you agree to become someone's slave or some other extortion agreement, it would naturally be nullified by state and federal laws. >>
Not with Ebay. I lost $2K in an obvious fraud from a 100% FB seller who lifted another dealer's auction and gladly kept my money. They even said they never shipped anything. It was clear mail fraud. I even had a house address in Atlanta, a phone number, etc. Ebay did nothing. Nor did USPS, local police, FedGovt internet crimes division, attorneys general, etc. These guys really don't care about white collar fraud unless it's in the $MILLIONs and preferably being driven by an organized crime ring...foreign or domestic. This one at $200K+ might be big enough to get some attention....or it may not be. Hopefully, Paypal can do something for you as it's not likely anyone else will be able to.
The OP's auction didn't feel right from the lack of any description right down to the terribly jam-packed Terms and Conditions. I would have read the entire thing and found the fine print at the end. But then again I've already been screwed for the 1st and last time on Ebay. I won't even go there anymore. There's no such thing as "fraud" when it comes to coin crimes....only what the sellers can get away with. Just because it's a federal crime doesn't mean they care or even have the resources to tackle it. The TPQ listing had enough red flags attached to it to suggest something wasn't right. Every time you bid on Ebay the first question should be will I get my money back....rather than how much can I make on this purchase?
<< <i>Fraud nullifies all contracts even if it is "constructive" fraud which no one in their right mind would accept. i.e. if you agree to become someone's slave or some other extortion agreement, it would naturally be nullified by state and federal laws. >>
Not with Ebay. I lost $2K in an obvious fraud from a 100% FB seller who lifted another dealer's auction and never shipped the coin but gladly kept my money. They even said they never shipped anything. It was clear mail fraud. Ebay did nothing. Nor did USPS, local police, internet crimes division, attorneys general, etc. Hopefully, Paypal can do something for you. The OP's auction didn't feel right from the lack of any description right down to the terribly jam-packed Terms and Conditions. I would have read them and found the fine print at the end. But then again I've already been screwed for the 1st and last time on Ebay. I won't even go there anymore. There's no such thing as "fraud" when it comes to coin crimes....only what the sellers can get away with. >>
How long ago was this? >>
Does it matter? Isn't fraud still fraud? It was just before Paypal became mandatory and checks were still commonly used. The perp personally endorsed my check at their local Atlanta bank and then wired that money to a 3rd party. The whole thing stunk of organized crime fraud. They didn't care then, and sure don't care any more today. In the old days my local USPS inspector would have been all over this. But now with all this stuff being funneled to internet crimes division it removes any link to the local postmaster. It's just a big black hole that saves them a lot of money. What I did learn from my experience is that the outcome of your case is highly dependent on the particular officer in charge of any particular region. In my case Atlanta didn't either have coverage or no one who cared. The internet crimes enforcement office from the Dallas area told me had my crime been committed there he could have helped. So don't do these crimes in Dallas.....lol.
<< <i>$1,000,000.000 USD in some countries is quite a substantial amount of money to live off of if you are single >>
About 10 years ago a guy on eBay was running his own futures market in gold. When the market moved against him, he quit shipping. The Postal Inspectors said he got $200k and tracked him leaving the country back to Argentina. The said if he ever comes back to the US he would be arrested.
<< <i> As for this, "Every time you bid on Ebay the first question should be will I get my money back" the answer is yes, almost every time. >>
The key word being, "almost". >>
You know when you don't get your money back? When you buy a coin, it says no returns, and the description says nothing about the coin. Basically, when you gamble that a coin is better than it looks. That's the almost. As long as you stay disciplined and don't take stupid chances, eBay is a great venue that provides excellent buyer security. >>
Ebay has always had my back. I'm amazed they would release that much money.
<< <i>To OP and others ripped by this guy...if you paid with PP funded by a card, file a chargeback through the card company if all else fails.
Assuming this isn't a stolen/hacked account and is just a case of a scummy seller- I'm sure this guy's going to try to hide behind the fact that he listed them in the Art-Posters section...which might make it interesting if/when litigation commences. As to the images, assuming Heritage owns copyright to the images (they have a blanket copyright statement and "all rights reserved" at the bottom of their pages) they could initiate an action against him but cost/benefit wise they might not want to hassle with litigating it. Other sellers have stolen HA images in the past and basically the only things that usually happen are that the images are removed and the account deleted. >>
Although Ebay wants me to pay for purchases directly from my bank account, I always pay with a CC. That extra layer of protection can be priceless.
<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's. >>
<< <i>Does it matter? Isn't fraud still fraud? It was just before Paypal became mandatory and checks were still commonly used. The perp personally endorsed my check at their local Atlanta bank and then wired that money to a 3rd party. The whole thing stunk of organized crime fraud. They didn't care then, and sure don't care any more today. >>
Yeah, it matters. eBay is much safer today. You're blasting them for something that happened under their old system, when they haven't been using that system for what? 5+ years now? Definitely relevant information. The reason you didn't get your money back is because you weren't aggressive enough in pursuing the individual who committed the fraud against you... old eBay basically acted as nothing more than a venue and search engine for items for sale, whereas new eBay works essentially as a middleman due to the paypal factor, and thus, has a legal responsibility to ensure the successful completion of transactions. You should have pursued the individual via local police, did you talk to them? Did you file a report with the USPS for postal fraud? Did you consider filing a small claims court case against the seller......... >>
I'm only "offended" because you didn't bother to read my post before going off on your own tangent. Don't people around here read and analyze before they begin responding? I'm seeing it much more often these days. Read my post again. Yes, I talked to both police forces involved a number of times. I filed a formal complaint with my local USPS via the US govt's financial crimes internet division. That's a paper-less trail with very little teeth all going up to the govt computer in the sky. Both Police Dept's got a copy of the internet crime case. I never even got a response from anyone in the govt on the status of my claim....not even a response that it was closed, dead ended, or what have you....just silence and indifference. That's pretty ridiculous since it was open and shut fraud. It was only by luck that the Dallas area crimes investigator saw my case and emailed me back. He said if it was in his area he'd be on it....and was very sorry that nothing was happening out of the Atlanta area. He couldn't really do anything if the Atlanta investigators were indifferent. When your local govt/UPSP official asks you to file a claim with US Govt Internet Financial Crimes center....understand it's akin to going to the dead letter office.
None of this changes the fact that Ebay did nothing and couldn't care less. In fact, after a week "researching" my complaint they didn't even have the decency to follow up on my emails on what they found, if anything. They just stopped replying saying and said "case closed." At that time in 2008 Ebay had specific procedures to deal with fraudulent auctions and crime in general. It was clear that my situation fell under that and Ebay was supposed to take action on the seller. For whatever reason they decided to pass on my case despite it being clear cut. Heck, they didn't even suspend the seller's Ebay privileges. I'm surprised they didn't remove my negative feedback on that seller....I think I called them a "crook".......lol. The seller could do the same thing again today as their account is unchanged. If you're lucky, maybe you'll bump into them on your next purchase.
I contacted the Police where my post office was located and filled out a detailed report that was also faxed and mailed to the Fulton County police in Atlanta, GA. Initially I talked to the Fulton County chief but they too stopped responding to my calls and would never call back. There were too busy running after "real criminals." Didn't they have the time to knock on the seller's door in Fulton County and ask them what was up? Do they want this kind of illegal activity going on in their city? After weeks of trying to get any law enforcement to do anything, I figured the system was strongly stacked against me. Sure, I could have filed a small claims case or initiated a civil case. But, more than likely any monetary judgement would never have been followed through on. And attorney fees would have probably eaten up all of that. Had the crime occurred in my state I would have had half a chance. But seeing as the jurisdiction was 1,000 miles away, fat chance. Crime is crime. Doesn't matter if it was in 2008 or today. I was truly surprised to see such a useless criminal system in motion. It was an eye-opener. Ebay was just a small part of this entire crime and fraud. That's what's even more disappointing. The Dallas investigator said the entire operation sounded like the Russian mafia or a similar organization. I could see where law or postal enforcement wouldn't want to step on the wrong toes in such a situation....especially for some dweeb coin collector living 1,000 miles away. In their minds, if you can afford to buy a coin for $2,000, then you can afford that loss....it's not going to change your life one way or the other. That really is the bottom line with today's white collar crime enforcement.
Good luck with FleaBay. At least this TPQ seller never actually promised anyone a coin....only the suggestion of a photograph or print. In my mind this fraud is more debatable than what I went through. They at least sent something. And nothing in the auction says you're going to get the physical coin pictured. My only point is that if Ebay was that indifferent back in 2008 don't expect them to have changed any in 2015. They are in it for themselves, not for you or me.
After I saw the company name Top Q Inc , I remembered that I actually bought one coin from him and I found on my ebay history that I bought the coin on October 28, 2014. He did shipped the coin back then. I hope scammer will be found and serve a jail time.
After I saw the company name Top Q Inc , I remembered that I actually bought one coin from him and I found on my ebay history that I bought the coin on October 28, 2014. He did shipped the coin back then. I hope scammer will be found and serve a jail time. >>
Save those addresses! Email and physical and the paypal email
I got scammed in 2006 for nearly $6K. USPS went after the chump who apparently didn't own the coins he listed. Instead, he tried to buy them after the auctions closed. In any event, the guy sent me the coins I won but most were boinked or messed with one way or another. I sent them all back (even a few that were borderline acceptable.
Eventually he was convicted. Rafael Rios. I had forgotten his name until I started typing.
At least back then the USPS went to bat for us. Back then eBay lacked adequate protections and I didn't use paypal. Although Paypal was pretty lame back then too. Case in point was a CA seller who never sent me a 1798 DBHE VF35 OGH PCGS dollar that I won and paid through Paypal. But I joined the class action suit vs Paypal and was eventually made whole.
Comments
Had a little fine print similar to this yokel's as well.
That guy/gal ended up in prison for federal crimes involving the PO....something about "across state lines".
Is is likely this guy/gal will be serving time one of these days too.
bob
<< <i>"Topq,inc does not accepts no liability"
Double negative. So I guess they do accept liability! >>
Let us hope that it's piled on - both civil and criminal as he so deserves!
What about e-bay's no questions not as described policy??? How can anyone say that they can work around that?
For those that lost money, talk to your credit card company, those that didn't use a credit card you need to retake Buying on E-Bay 101
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
FRAUD (noun)
: the crime of using dishonest methods to take something valuable from another person
....
: a copy of something that is meant to look like the real thing in order to trick people
Link.
Since he scammed you and others. Have you met with an attorney to pursue this, threaten him? I think at this point he has gone to ground anyhow. This is something some professional thief / con man would do. I wonder too if ebay is liable for having this conduit of fraud happen on their site. Can you get him on phone? I would have someone call him and threaten him with Federal felony theft. Unfortunately he is probably long gone to be taking any calls (exit strategy) - $200 K he could be retired to anywhere. He most likely could be a member of organized crime and this is just another day at the office. This operation could have been planned by a group with estimated revenue / exit strategy.
This whole thing makes me sick - I have certified coins I put up at auction recently at slightly less than CDN Bid and many of them did not get buyers and bidders and this guy is openly stealing from bidders with people just handing him their money when they can get an honest deal somewhere else.
"The poster sizes for the sale of this lot may vary,but approximately are two hundred ten millimeters on two hundred ninety seven millimeters."
Just horrible. Im sorry for all the winners of these auctions. Hope the fight is short and you get made whole.
BST Transactions (as the seller): Collectall, GRANDAM, epcjimi1, wondercoin, jmski52, wheathoarder, jay1187, jdsueu, grote15, airplanenut, bigole
"Plug in the chair"
- Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo
SOLVE ET COAGULA
<< <i>Does anyone have the address of this thief? >>
Yeah, I wonder if the packages have a return address. The seller has a big, brass pair to ship pictures, so he may have put his actual address on the package
He probably learned it watching Judge Judy
<< <i>I bet this guy is pretty nervous, not everyone is going to sit back and let Ebay and the Law handle this. Willing to bet there's at least one trying to hunt down the seller. >>
That's an extremely foolish idea.
One of the scary things here is it is not that difficult to open/acquire eBay/PayPal accounts with bogus information, then take the money and run.
Occam's razor would lead me to believe that the perpetrator is not that smart and is just someone who just got desperate, lazy or greedy.
Needless to say, this will be very interesting to find out the real story.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
<< <i>Doesn't make any difference at all that s/he describes the size of an "image" or "poster", (some listings I checked used one word, some the other.)
Nowhere in the listings did they actually state they were selling an image or poster. Every indication pointed to a coin being offered; the category, (listed in two, but one was coins,) the description, the title, etc.
Simply mentioning the size of an image/poster down in the "terms and conditions", would not give any 'reasonable and prudent person' a reason to believe they were buying only an image. (Though confusing, it actually reads as though it's quite possible they may have been referencing the size of the image that was used to show the coin in the listing. Nowhere in the listing did they state that you get an image, nowhere.) Everything stated clearly represents a slabbed coin being offered. >>
+1. Back when I practiced law, this is exactly how I would have analyzed the issue. The judicial system will most likely look at it exactly the same way.
This was buried at the bottom of the listing description, which was basically a history of the Morgan dollar from Wikipedia. This seems really deceptive to me, since it doesn't really say specifically that you're bidding on a poster. I can totally understand why so many thought they were bidding on a real coin.
As a rule, I generally don't bid on listings where there is a ton of crap in the description that doesn't pertain specifically to the actual item offered for sale, and little or nothing about the item itself.
How about people getting taken for 20 grand or more thinking they were taking advantage of this dumb seller, who was listing these awesome coins in art rather than the coin category?! When you go back, many coins, (if they really had been coins), were selling for way too cheap. Greed kicks in and next thing you know, you are out 20 grand.
I hope they get their money back, but a little due diligence is in order when spending that kind of dough. He was selling garbage coins for a buck or two in January.
Assuming this isn't a stolen/hacked account and is just a case of a scummy seller- I'm sure this guy's going to try to hide behind the fact that he listed them in the Art-Posters section...which might make it interesting if/when litigation commences. As to the images, assuming Heritage owns copyright to the images (they have a blanket copyright statement and "all rights reserved" at the bottom of their pages) they could initiate an action against him but cost/benefit wise they might not want to hassle with litigating it.
Other sellers have stolen HA images in the past and basically the only things that usually happen are that the images are removed and the account deleted.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Keep us posted and good luck
Regardless, there is still seller protection and you should be able to open a case and return the item if you are unsatisfied.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
Just saying because several years ago when I was holding a million dollars in the bank for someone the attorney asked me the same question and my answer was a million would not be enough for me to just run off
How about you?
I hope no buyers lose money.
<< <i>While 200k-300k is certainly a lot of money .... is it the kind of money where you would pack up everything you have built up....and just run off?
Just saying because several years ago when I was holding a million dollars in the bank for someone the attorney asked me the same question and my answer was a million would not be enough for me to just run off
How about you? >>
$1,000,000.000 USD in some countries is quite a substantial amount of money to live off of if you are single.
<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's.
<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's.
<< <i>Fraud nullifies all contracts even if it is "constructive" fraud which no one in their right mind would accept. i.e. if you agree to become someone's slave or some other extortion agreement, it would naturally be nullified by state and federal laws. >>
Not with Ebay. I lost $2K in an obvious fraud from a 100% FB seller who lifted another dealer's auction and gladly kept my money. They even said they never shipped anything. It was clear mail fraud. I even had a house address in Atlanta, a phone number, etc. Ebay did nothing. Nor did USPS, local police, FedGovt internet crimes division, attorneys general, etc. These guys really don't care about white collar fraud unless it's in the $MILLIONs and preferably being driven by an organized crime ring...foreign or domestic. This one at $200K+ might be big enough to get some attention....or it may not be. Hopefully, Paypal can do something for you as it's not likely anyone else will be able to.
The OP's auction didn't feel right from the lack of any description right down to the terribly jam-packed Terms and Conditions. I would have read the entire thing and found the fine print at the end. But then again I've already been screwed for the 1st and last time on Ebay. I won't even go there anymore. There's no such thing as "fraud" when it comes to coin crimes....only what the sellers can get away with. Just because it's a federal crime doesn't mean they care or even have the resources to tackle it. The TPQ listing had enough red flags attached to it to suggest something wasn't right. Every time you bid on Ebay the first question should be will I get my money back....rather than how much can I make on this purchase?
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<< <i>Fraud nullifies all contracts even if it is "constructive" fraud which no one in their right mind would accept. i.e. if you agree to become someone's slave or some other extortion agreement, it would naturally be nullified by state and federal laws. >>
Not with Ebay. I lost $2K in an obvious fraud from a 100% FB seller who lifted another dealer's auction and never shipped the coin but gladly kept my money. They even said they never shipped anything. It was clear mail fraud. Ebay did nothing. Nor did USPS, local police, internet crimes division, attorneys general, etc. Hopefully, Paypal can do something for you. The OP's auction didn't feel right from the lack of any description right down to the terribly jam-packed Terms and Conditions. I would have read them and found the fine print at the end. But then again I've already been screwed for the 1st and last time on Ebay. I won't even go there anymore. There's no such thing as "fraud" when it comes to coin crimes....only what the sellers can get away with. >>
How long ago was this? >>
Does it matter? Isn't fraud still fraud? It was just before Paypal became mandatory and checks were still commonly used. The perp personally endorsed my check at their local Atlanta bank and then wired that money to a 3rd party. The whole thing stunk of organized crime fraud. They didn't care then, and sure don't care any more today. In the old days my local USPS inspector would have been all over this. But now with all this stuff being funneled to internet crimes division it removes any link to the local postmaster. It's just a big black hole that saves them a lot of money. What I did learn from my experience is that the outcome of your case is highly dependent on the particular officer in charge of any particular region. In my case Atlanta didn't either have coverage or no one who cared. The internet crimes enforcement office from the Dallas area told me had my crime been committed there he could have helped. So don't do these crimes in Dallas.....lol.
<< <i>$1,000,000.000 USD in some countries is quite a substantial amount of money to live off of if you are single >>
About 10 years ago a guy on eBay was running his own futures market in gold. When the market moved against him, he quit shipping. The Postal Inspectors said he got $200k and tracked him leaving the country back to Argentina. The said if he ever comes back to the US he would be arrested.
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As for this, "Every time you bid on Ebay the first question should be will I get my money back" the answer is yes, almost every time. >>
The key word being, "almost".
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
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As for this, "Every time you bid on Ebay the first question should be will I get my money back" the answer is yes, almost every time. >>
The key word being, "almost". >>
You know when you don't get your money back? When you buy a coin, it says no returns, and the description says nothing about the coin. Basically, when you gamble that a coin is better than it looks. That's the almost. As long as you stay disciplined and don't take stupid chances, eBay is a great venue that provides excellent buyer security. >>
Ebay has always had my back. I'm amazed they would release that much money.
<< <i>To OP and others ripped by this guy...if you paid with PP funded by a card, file a chargeback through the card company if all else fails.
Assuming this isn't a stolen/hacked account and is just a case of a scummy seller- I'm sure this guy's going to try to hide behind the fact that he listed them in the Art-Posters section...which might make it interesting if/when litigation commences. As to the images, assuming Heritage owns copyright to the images (they have a blanket copyright statement and "all rights reserved" at the bottom of their pages) they could initiate an action against him but cost/benefit wise they might not want to hassle with litigating it.
Other sellers have stolen HA images in the past and basically the only things that usually happen are that the images are removed and the account deleted. >>
Although Ebay wants me to pay for purchases directly from my bank account, I always pay with a CC. That extra layer of protection can be priceless.
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<< <i>This reminds me of the 1883 liberty nickel without cents scam. A deaf mute by the name of Josh Tatum would go into a drug store, get a 5 cent cigar, and had the clerk a gold plated 1883 cents less liberty head nickel that was about the same size as a five dollar gold piece. Of couse he said nothing because he could not talk if he wanted to, and the clerk thinking it was a new five dollar gold piece would give hime $4.95 in change. He was put on trial but acquitted because he never said that the coin was a five dollar gold piece. I think there will be some difficulty taking this dude to court if he ever gets apprehended. He is probably on the beach in south america right now enjoying the sun and a beer. >>
While a good story, there isn't really evidence that I'm aware of that it is actually true and seems to have come about in the 1960's. >>
I'm pretty sure this is an Urban Legend.
Top Q inc
tpqcollect (1715 )
86%
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<< <i>Does it matter? Isn't fraud still fraud? It was just before Paypal became mandatory and checks were still commonly used. The perp personally endorsed my check at their local Atlanta bank and then wired that money to a 3rd party. The whole thing stunk of organized crime fraud. They didn't care then, and sure don't care any more today. >>
Yeah, it matters. eBay is much safer today. You're blasting them for something that happened under their old system, when they haven't been using that system for what? 5+ years now? Definitely relevant information. The reason you didn't get your money back is because you weren't aggressive enough in pursuing the individual who committed the fraud against you... old eBay basically acted as nothing more than a venue and search engine for items for sale, whereas new eBay works essentially as a middleman due to the paypal factor, and thus, has a legal responsibility to ensure the successful completion of transactions. You should have pursued the individual via local police, did you talk to them? Did you file a report with the USPS for postal fraud? Did you consider filing a small claims court case against the seller......... >>
I'm only "offended" because you didn't bother to read my post before going off on your own tangent. Don't people around here read and analyze before they begin responding? I'm seeing it much more often these days. Read my post again. Yes, I talked to both police forces involved a number of times. I filed a formal complaint with my local USPS via the US govt's financial crimes internet division. That's a paper-less trail with very little teeth all going up to the govt computer in the sky. Both Police Dept's got a copy of the internet crime case. I never even got a response from anyone in the govt on the status of my claim....not even a response that it was closed, dead ended, or what have you....just silence and indifference. That's pretty ridiculous since it was open and shut fraud. It was only by luck that the Dallas area crimes investigator saw my case and emailed me back. He said if it was in his area he'd be on it....and was very sorry that nothing was happening out of the Atlanta area. He couldn't really do anything if the Atlanta investigators were indifferent. When your local govt/UPSP official asks you to file a claim with US Govt Internet Financial Crimes center....understand it's akin to going to the dead letter office.
None of this changes the fact that Ebay did nothing and couldn't care less. In fact, after a week "researching" my complaint they didn't even have the decency to follow up on my emails on what they found, if anything. They just stopped replying saying and said "case closed." At that time in 2008 Ebay had specific procedures to deal with fraudulent auctions and crime in general. It was clear that my situation fell under that and Ebay was supposed to take action on the seller. For whatever reason they decided to pass on my case despite it being clear cut. Heck, they didn't even suspend the seller's Ebay privileges. I'm surprised they didn't remove my negative feedback on that seller....I think I called them a "crook".......lol. The seller could do the same thing again today as their account is unchanged. If you're lucky, maybe you'll bump into them on your next purchase.
I contacted the Police where my post office was located and filled out a detailed report that was also faxed and mailed to the Fulton County police in Atlanta, GA. Initially I talked to the Fulton County chief but they too stopped responding to my calls and would never call back. There were too busy running after "real criminals." Didn't they have the time to knock on the seller's door in Fulton County and ask them what was up? Do they want this kind of illegal activity going on in their city? After weeks of trying to get any law enforcement to do anything, I figured the system was strongly stacked against me. Sure, I could have filed a small claims case or initiated a civil case. But, more than likely any monetary judgement would never have been followed through on. And attorney fees would have probably eaten up all of that. Had the crime occurred in my state I would have had half a chance. But seeing as the jurisdiction was 1,000 miles away, fat chance. Crime is crime. Doesn't matter if it was in 2008 or today. I was truly surprised to see such a useless criminal system in motion. It was an eye-opener. Ebay was just a small part of this entire crime and fraud. That's what's even more disappointing. The Dallas investigator said the entire operation sounded like the Russian mafia or a similar organization. I could see where law or postal enforcement wouldn't want to step on the wrong toes in such a situation....especially for some dweeb coin collector living 1,000 miles away. In their minds, if you can afford to buy a coin for $2,000, then you can afford that loss....it's not going to change your life one way or the other. That really is the bottom line with today's white collar crime enforcement.
Good luck with FleaBay. At least this TPQ seller never actually promised anyone a coin....only the suggestion of a photograph or print. In my mind this fraud is more debatable than what I went through. They at least sent something. And nothing in the auction says you're going to get the physical coin pictured. My only point is that if Ebay was that indifferent back in 2008 don't expect them to have changed any in 2015. They are in it for themselves, not for you or me.
<< <i>I'd google -
Top Q inc
tpqcollect (1715 )
86% >>
After I saw the company name Top Q Inc , I remembered that I actually bought one coin from him and I found on my ebay history that I bought the coin on October 28, 2014. He did shipped the coin back then.
I hope scammer will be found and serve a jail time.
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<< <i>I'd google -
Top Q inc
tpqcollect (1715 )
86% >>
After I saw the company name Top Q Inc , I remembered that I actually bought one coin from him and I found on my ebay history that I bought the coin on October 28, 2014. He did shipped the coin back then.
I hope scammer will be found and serve a jail time. >>
Save those addresses! Email and physical and the paypal email
272 "poster" transactions since the middle of January (when the last normal auction seemed to conclude); $188,217.67 total.
Eventually he was convicted. Rafael Rios. I had forgotten his name until I started typing.
At least back then the USPS went to bat for us. Back then eBay lacked adequate protections and I didn't use paypal. Although Paypal was pretty lame back then too. Case in point was a CA seller who never sent me a 1798 DBHE VF35 OGH PCGS dollar that I won and paid through Paypal. But I joined the class action suit vs Paypal and was eventually made whole.