Pretender Medal; Two Types?

harasha

I threw out a minimal bid on a Pretender medal at Stack's NYINC Auction. I already had this medal, but this one looked like an upgrade. Now I am thinking two types; maybe one an unofficial copy? Worn dies?

JCMhouston

Wow, the second one sure has some detail in it.

EVillageProwler

I can't tell if they're different die states, or the photography (light, color) is throwing me off.

If they're different DS, then the second one seems to be the later state. But, the second medal is so much more detailed than the first that it seems unusual for a later die state to produce so much better detail when the earlier one is already well detailed.

Btw, any idea where the catalog number (for the second medal) came from?

EVP

harasha

Unfortunately, the different settings I used, at the time I imaged the second medal, are throwing off the comparison. The top medal is in nicer shape; more detailed, among other things.
I do like the fact that the lower medal has that catalogue number, but I do not know from where.

Iosephus

Interesting. They do appear to be different dies, with the top medal showing streaks next to the clouds that I don't see on the bottom medal. Also, the lettering appears slightly different between the two. They both appear to have die cracks going through (roughly) the same part of Britannia's shield. The examples in Eimer and Medallic Illustrations both match your top medal, though the Eimer piece does not have the die crack on the reverse.

harasha

Darn it, Josephus, you have a really sharp eye. You are seeing the differnces in the obverse, but looking at the reverse die crack, to which I had not paid attention, indicates the same die. The crack on the lower medal, is less sharp, however, which suggests to me that the reverse die has become quite worn.
It is not that obvious on the size of the image that I posted, but I took a look at the much larger original image.

Iosephus

Can you post the larger images of the medals?

1960NYGiants

I see differences in the cuirass (shoulder armor) details, # of strands of hair in the curls over his left shoulder (viewer's right), lots of different looks to the ships/boats, the neck of the horse, the tree branches, cloud details, building spires and more. IMHO, these are from two different dies pairs not die wear or states and possibly different time periods. I think the cracks are coincidental.

harasha

I have posted larger images. I could go even larger, but the size may exceed practicality for viewing on the Forum website.

MacCrimmon

Any chance the second medal is an electrotype?

PatAR

A beautiful design and the first medal has a lovely patina. Very nice!

The Jacobite scene of London and Brittania is quite dramatic. This certainly conveys how strongly they felt about their cause.

I'm interested to see what develops regarding the question of worn dies or copy.

nicholasz219

Hmm, I am undecided. I thought that the die crack match in the shield was a good giveaway of a later die state for medal number two. But then you do see some differences like the lettering and clouds which while less sharply struck also seem different overall. Even the hair above his forehead looks slightly different.

These are great medals though, and what a great project to figure out the mystery.