Another Resealed Box

jfkheat

A month or so ago I bought a 1984 Topps football wax box off of Ebay. I sent the box to Steve at BBCE and here is what he said about the box, "The 1984 Football box is NO GOOD...Not even close!!!" I didn't start a case through ebay but went through the return process. I emailed the seller and shipped the box back. The seller never responded. They received the box on Dec 24th and I still didn't hear from them. Going through the return process through Ebay, Ebay gave the seller until Jan 5th to issue a refund. Still no response. On the morning of the 5th I received an email from Ebay asking if I wanted their help in getting my refund. I opened a case and still never heard from the seller. This afternoon Ebay found in my favor and issues a "courtesy refund". I just left the seller a negative feedback. The auction link is posted below. I'm sure at some time the box will be relisted.
James

84 Football Box

Bosox1976

Handled perfectly

galaxy27

James-

What percentage of the boxes you've purchased off of eBay have ultimately been rejected? Really curious.

jfkheat

<< <i>James-

What percentage of the boxes you've purchased off of eBay have ultimately been rejected? Really curious. >>



I would say between 2% and 3%. If I remember correctly I have had 4 or 5 bad boxes. Two of those were 1984 football wax boxes.
James

grote15

The percentage goes up exponentially the more valuable the issue and the further back into the 1970s you go.

Paleoanthroman

<< <i>A month or so ago I bought a 1984 Topps football wax box off of Ebay. I sent the box to Steve at BBCE and here is what he said about the box, "The 1984 Football box is NO GOOD...Not even close!!!" I didn't start a case through ebay but went through the return process. I emailed the seller and shipped the box back. The seller never responded. They received the box on Dec 24th and I still didn't hear from them. Going through the return process through Ebay, Ebay gave the seller until Jan 5th to issue a refund. Still no response. On the morning of the 5th I received an email from Ebay asking if I wanted their help in getting my refund. I opened a case and still never heard from the seller. This afternoon Ebay found in my favor and issues a "courtesy refund". I just left the seller a negative feedback. The auction link is posted below. I'm sure at some time the box will be relisted.
James

84 Football Box >>



I think the listing was weak to begin with. Nowhere in the listing did it say ‘unopened’. The seller undoubtedly knew the box was no good.

Buying raw is worth the shot. Instead of buying a BBCE sealed box at premium, buy raw, send to BBCE and if it passes, you have yourself a sealed box worth double what you paid. If it fails inspection, return it to the seller just as long as they listed it as ‘unopened’ and you provide the evidence from BBCE. I see alot of ‘sealed’ terminology in listings which to me is just another word for 're-sealed’. It is used to protect the seller against a return because technically the listing is correct and if they don’t accept returns, you might be out of luck. In your case, the buyer accepted returns, so you really didn’t need any specific reason to return. You could have simply cited buyers remorse and the seller had to accept.

I know some guys that have the seller ship right to BBCE. That way, the seller can’t say you messed with the box before BBCE’s evaluation.

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>A month or so ago I bought a 1984 Topps football wax box off of Ebay. I sent the box to Steve at BBCE and here is what he said about the box, "The 1984 Football box is NO GOOD...Not even close!!!" I didn't start a case through ebay but went through the return process. I emailed the seller and shipped the box back. The seller never responded. They received the box on Dec 24th and I still didn't hear from them. Going through the return process through Ebay, Ebay gave the seller until Jan 5th to issue a refund. Still no response. On the morning of the 5th I received an email from Ebay asking if I wanted their help in getting my refund. I opened a case and still never heard from the seller. This afternoon Ebay found in my favor and issues a "courtesy refund". I just left the seller a negative feedback. The auction link is posted below. I'm sure at some time the box will be relisted.
James

84 Football Box >>



I think the listing was weak to begin with. Nowhere in the listing did it say ‘unopened’. The seller undoubtedly knew the box was no good.

Buying raw is worth the shot. Instead of buying a BBCE sealed box at premium, buy raw, send to BBCE and if it passes, you have yourself a sealed box worth double what you paid. If it fails inspection, return it to the seller just as long as they listed it as ‘unopened’ and you provide the evidence from BBCE. I see alot of ‘sealed’ terminology in listings which to me is just another word for 're-sealed’. It is used to protect the seller against a return because technically the listing is correct and if they don’t accept returns, you might be out of luck. In your case, the buyer accepted returns, so you really didn’t need any specific reason to return. You could have simply cited buyers remorse and the seller had to accept.

I know some guys that have the seller ship right to BBCE. That way, the seller can’t say you messed with the box before BBCE’s evaluation. >>



That is a good point but is it really worth the hassle and the headache? I'm sure the % of good product for 1980s wax is fairly decent, but I can tell you that the majority of pre-1979 unopened is flat out resealed or suspect.

bobbyw8469

To me, and Im playing devil's advocate here, why would a seller sell an un-BBCE certified box and ship it directly to BBCE so the box can be worth double???? Why wouldn't the seller just send it off to BBCE themselves??? Seems like a lot of money is left on the table by them not sending them off to BBCE themselves.

grote15

<< <i>To me, and Im playing devil's advocate here, why would a seller sell an un-BBCE certified box and ship it directly to BBCE so the box can be worth double???? Why wouldn't the seller just send it off to BBCE themselves??? Seems like a lot of money is left on the table by them not sending them off to BBCE themselves. >>



My guess is either they don't have confidence in Steve authenticating the box, they don't want to pay Steve to authenticate the box (even though it will be worth, in most cases, much more than the cost of him wrapping it), or they just aren't aware of that option~here on CU, it's common knowledge, but many collectors don't even know who Steve Hart is.

jfkheat

I would think that most Ebay sellers don't know that BBCE offers this service. They may think that the BBCE sealed boxes on Ebay were all sold through BBCE at one time
James

seebelow

I'm surprised that it's only 2-3 % of what you've bought has been rejected....4-5 boxes. So that means you have purchased about 200 boxes off of eBay more or less? You're doing very well. It's my belief that the figure has to be above 20-30% are resealed. And I think that figure is low. I'm hesitant to buy and still will do my due diligence. That being said,id have to say about 10% of mine have been resealed per bbce. Those boxes being 1973-1983.

I'd say with the huge uptick in the price of unopened material in the last 2-3 yrs, we still haven't seen the peak in fraudulent material out there. I'm sure they're buying up empty boxes and wrappers as fast as they can. I'm still not sure some wrappers and stickers/cards can't be reproduced.

Suggestion (and my own experience)....if I'm buying anything unopened in the five figure range that you still have them send it directly to bbce to be unwrapped and rechecked.

I'm still in the market for a box of 1986 fleer basketball...if I'm shelling out 20,30 or even 40,000 it goes directly to steve. Even if previously wrapped. I just can't trust everyone after being burned.

seebelow

That's why I'm kind of glad the member with the amazing collection of 50's and 60's boxes and cards who recently decided to sell some, decided to sell to just 3-4 guys who I assume he knows, trusts and has done business with before.

He had mint gorgeous boxes that I could see some low life just waiting to fill it and somehow wrap it with cellophane and pass it as unopened.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Great eBay gave you a refund. Do they eat the cost or can they get back the funds since it was end of November? I'd really hate if he end up keeping the $400

Paleoanthroman

<< <i>To me, and Im playing devil's advocate here, why would a seller sell an un-BBCE certified box and ship it directly to BBCE so the box can be worth double???? Why wouldn't the seller just send it off to BBCE themselves??? Seems like a lot of money is left on the table by them not sending them off to BBCE themselves. >>



Good point. I ask myself the same question whenever I sell something. LOL. I guess some people don’t know what they have or there is a hassle and price of certifying it that may not be worth it.

I think once a years' product crosses a price-point, you start to see it certified. Look at 1981 Topps baseball wax. Two years ago nothing was BBCE wrapped for that years baseball and now you see over 50% of the boxes listed as BBCE certified. Obviously, once product gets over a certain price, getting it certified becomes a good idea for the seller and collector. We just saw this sweet spot transform through '79 and ’80 years Topps Baseball wax in the last year. Now, I personally wouldn’t buy an uncertified 70’s box because it’s probably not wrapped for a reason AND the cheapest uncertified wax box is well over 1K. However, I would buy raw in the sweet spot of 1981 baseball right now. I guess the point is, start buying raw 81 Fleer boxes in bulk and send to Steve. In 4 years you will thank me. HAHA.

jfkheat

<< <i>I'm surprised that it's only 2-3 % of what you've bought has been rejected....4-5 boxes. So that means you have purchased about 200 boxes off of eBay more or less? You're doing very well. It's my belief that the figure has to be above 20-30% are resealed. And I think that figure is low. I'm hesitant to buy and still will do my due diligence. That being said,id have to say about 10% of mine have been resealed per bbce. Those boxes being 1973-1983.
>>



I would guess that I have bought between 175 and 200 boxes off of Ebay. I always check feedback and sellers past and current sales before bidding. Sometimes I'll take a chance with low feedback sellers. Ebay's buyers protection makes it a bit easier to get a refund. I haven't bought 70's boxes. I sure that there are a lot more bad boxes when getting into the more expensive boxes.
James

mtcards

I have only purchased 3 unopened pre 1985 boxes on ebay and all three were tampered with. I didnt even need BBCE to check it out to know that they had been resealed. If I thought 2-3% was going to be the average, I would buy a lot more, but honestly, I would think the number would be closer to 20% now that the prices have gone up on earlier releases. Would love to have some older wax at the discount unauthenticated wax goes for, but dont have much faith in the ebay selling community to buy one

Paleoanthroman

<< <i>I have only purchased 3 unopened pre 1985 boxes on ebay and all three were tampered with. I didnt even need BBCE to check it out to know that they had been resealed. If I thought 2-3% was going to be the average, I would buy a lot more, but honestly, I would think the number would be closer to 20% now that the prices have gone up on earlier releases. Would love to have some older wax at the discount unauthenticated wax goes for, but dont have much faith in the ebay selling community to buy one >>



Yes, like Tim suggested earlier, It does make sense. Given a pool of unopened Wax for any given year, as the legit wax boxes begin to get certified, the percent of fraud in the remaining pool of unopened goes up by simple math as you eliminate the legit wax to certification. This goes on until we see, like Tim says, almost 9 out of 10 remaining un-certified unopened are probably Tampered with. You best bet is to stay ahaid of the curve if you want to invest.

I think ’86 Topps Baseball is going to start moving a little.

galaxy27

<< <i>I would say between 2% and 3%. If I remember correctly I have had 4 or 5 bad boxes. Two of those were 1984 football wax boxes.
James >>



You're connecting at a robust clip -- much higher than I anticipated. Well done, brother.

I can only provide a minuscule sample size, but I'm currently batting 1.000 based on the "protocol" I have implemented prior to each instance. On the rare occasion I track down a butt naked box I'm interested in, I fire a message to the seller conveying my sincere interest. We generally hit the ball back over the net a few times, but I eventually dig in and bring up the topic of provenance. One time the conversation ended right then and there. Got my answer. A few other times I received answers that weren't exactly the panacea for insomnia, so I proceeded to the next step: Mr. Hart in Indy. Invariably, they ask who he is. I not only tell them, but I kindly ask if they'll send the box directly to him and then they're free to go wash their hands. A couple of times the conversation ended right then and there. Got my answer and got my answer. But on three separate occasions I had sellers say something to the effect of, "Sure, not a problem." At that point confidence kicks in, and thus far it has held true to form.

One of the sleekest boxes I own (79 OPC BB) made its way to my collection via this route.....south of FMV.

angelenocarddude

For future: if you have a claim for over $500, it will be handled by the high value claims people. If you call customer service and ask for that department, it is the only scenario in which you are going to get someone in U.S. (i.e., who has the slightest clue what to do and was actually trained). They can expedite a lot of this process. There is still the waiting period, but they'll shove it right through on first eligible days.

jfkheat

<< <i>For future: if you have a claim for over $500, it will be handled by the high value claims people. If you call customer service and ask for that department, it is the only scenario in which you are going to get someone in U.S. (i.e., who has the slightest clue what to do and was actually trained). They can expedite a lot of this process. There is still the waiting period, but they'll shove it right through on first eligible days. >>



Thank you for that information. I wasn't aware of that. It wouldn't have helped in this case but I'll remember that if I have any problems in the future.
James