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Plain Edge Bust Half

habaracahabaraca Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Picked this one up a few weeks ago..
She is 32.6 to 32.7 mm so a bit larger since she didn't go through
the castaying (castaing) machine..

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    EclecticEclectic Posts: 182
    Interesting
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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 18,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What is a castaying machine?
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    EclecticEclectic Posts: 182


    << <i>What is a castaying machine? >>


    I think he meant 'castaing' machine
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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are you sure it's not an electrotype? I'm no expert but it kinda looks like one.

    Tom

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    EclecticEclectic Posts: 182


    << <i>Are you sure it's not an electrotype? I'm no expert but it kinda looks like one. >>


    Yeh, the seam on the edge did look a bit suspect
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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 18,569 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>What is a castaying machine? >>


    I think he meant 'castaing' machine >>



    Thanks, I learned something tonight.

    Found this definition on the PCGS Website.


    Castaing machine: Machine which imparted edge lettering to blanks before striking. It consisted of a bench fitted with parallel bars each containing half the edge lettering, set apart minutely less than blank diameter, spring-mounted, one fixed, the other set to move forward while remaining the same distance from the fixed bar, actuated by gears and long handle. Each blank was caused to go through this machine, ideally without slipping, though in practice slippage accidents were frequent, producing blundered inscriptions (overlapping). More rarely, a lettered blank would be run through a second time. The Castaing machine became obsolete with introduction of the close collar, q.v.
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    numismanumisma Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭

    Looks completely genuine to me, and certainly not an electrotype. All characteristics of a "missing edge lettering Bust half dollar" are present on your coin. A very rare coin.

    Congrats on the acquisition. Did you buy it as an error, or was this the best cherry pick of 2014?
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    Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 12,175 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting for sure.
    Have you weighed it?

    Successful BST transactions with 177 members. breakdown, scotty1419, mattniss, bigjpst, onlyroosies, Manorcourtman, guitarwes, Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
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    slumlord98slumlord98 Posts: 1,180 ✭
    The line seen around the edge was called a belly line by Henry Hilgard; this was imparted when the blank was cut from the strip. The real deal. Congrats, Phil! Bringing it to FUN?
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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 18,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm loving this thread.
    Great find habaraca.

    How rare is a plain edge CBH???
    Will PCGS grade her.....pics look positive.
    They may have to create a new edgeview holder for your special coin. image
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    EclecticEclectic Posts: 182


    << <i>How rare is a plain edge CBH??? >>


    Extremely rare. Very few are known, if I recall correctly.
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    LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting half,

    I like the missing dentil over the M on the reverse.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The line seen around the edge was called a belly line by Henry Hilgard; this was imparted when the blank was cut from the strip. The real deal. Congrats, Phil! Bringing it to FUN? >>



    ^ What he said. Good pickup!
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 40,183 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Guess

    The

    Grade!

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Boy, did I learn something today.
    Plain edge CBH & belly line.
    Very cool and congrats!

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

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    JJSingletonJJSingleton Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Boy, did I learn something today.
    Plain edge CBH & belly line.
    Very cool and congrats! >>

    +1

    Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia

    Findley Ridge Collection
    About Findley Ridge

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    hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,843 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
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    astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting!
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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    TWQGTWQG Posts: 3,145 ✭✭
    Pretty coin too.
    My eBay store
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    zap1111zap1111 Posts: 1,298 ✭✭
    Great find! Looks like the O.115, with that open dentil above the M that Lanlord noticed and recut O in 50. Thanks for sharing it.

    zap
    zap1111
    102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
    BHNC #198
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    habaracahabaraca Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Her weight is right on @13.4g.

    As for rarity looks like 4 have been listed in Steve Herrman's AMBPR

    1812 O-103
    1817 O-103
    1819 O-107a
    1819 O-109a

    Wish she was a Cherry Pick,,,,, alas, just a CHERRY coin.

    I have been looking for one of these since 2008 when I first met Henry and he told me
    about the "Belly Line" Sure wish I could share her with him.

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    BustHalfBrianBustHalfBrian Posts: 4,200 ✭✭✭✭
    Terrific piece! And a rare one, no doubt. Easily worth in the upper four figures.

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    LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Question about the belly line.

    Would non-reeded edge coins (cent, nickel, Sac dollars) have a belly line if they weren't struck in closed collars?
    Or, has the technology behind punching blanks changed so the line is no longer created?
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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...... belly line...... is that sort of like muffin top?

    All that aside, cool coin & informative thread.
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    GoldbullyGoldbully Posts: 18,569 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Great find! Looks like the O.115, with that open dentil above the M that Lanlord noticed and recut O in 50. Thanks for sharing it.

    zap >>



    image
    Example of Overton 115 Small Date, Small Letters on PCGS Website

    PCGS Link
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    fishteethfishteeth Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭✭✭
    great coin, good to see you finally find one, I know you have been searching for a while. Congrats
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    CoinZipCoinZip Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭


    Awesome coin..... now you have to work on a date set of these.... image


    coinzip.com

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    mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Nice find, and a good reason to look at raw Busties.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Never seen one...very cool! Congrats.

    Tom

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    crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    Cool coin
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    USMarine6USMarine6 Posts: 2,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
    These are the types of threads that keep me here. Thank you for sharing and the knowledge.
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    maibockaddictmaibockaddict Posts: 1,759 ✭
    Very cool! A decent au to boot!
    You may call me Dave
    BHNC member # 184!

    http://www.busthalfaddict.com
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    SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wonderful find, congrats.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
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    bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    learn something here practically every day, very cool find. Did you buy it as such (if I may be so bold)?
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    slumlord98slumlord98 Posts: 1,180 ✭
    The most interesting aspect of this coin is that it doesn't have a broadstruck appearance as do all other plain edge half dollars, except for the former Logan 1819 O.107. Only the second normal appearing example and a much later date struck at the second mint, where happy accidents still happened!
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The most interesting aspect of this coin is that it doesn't have a broadstruck appearance as do all other plain edge half dollars, except for the former Logan 1819 O.107. Only the second normal appearing example and a much later date struck at the second mint, where happy accidents still happened! >>



    Indeed, just the flattening of the denticles caused by no upsetting of the blank. Wonder if they forgot to anneal it as well?
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • Options
    habaracahabaraca Posts: 2,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<The most interesting aspect of this coin is that it doesn't have a broadstruck appearance as do all other plain edge half dollars, except for the former Logan 1819 O.107.>>

    Brad,
    Good observation. The dentils on mine are a bit smushed looking, not a lot of separation out to the edge like the above example of the same
    die marriage, but certainly not flattened or broadstruck

    I looked up the Logan coins to see the difference.... Interesting for sure.
    Logan's 1812 103 looks flattened and is 33.4 mm
    Logan's 1819 107 looks more normal and is 32.6 mm like mine is. Normal as you know being 32.5

    Looking forward to seeing you at FUN and sharing her.
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    jdillanejdillane Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭
    Very cool and a pretty specimen to boot!

    I used to track my edges. Have a flip over double strike tucked away but haven't come across a plain edge. Hadn't known about the belly line either.
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The edge scan of the coin shows a typical
    'cut and tear' edge' on a Type 1 Blank (no rim).

    In theory, it should be just a tad wider in diameter
    than a normal Type 2 Planchet (w/upset rim).

    I hadn't heard Henry use that "belly line" term;
    I've always heard it as 'cut & tear' marks from the
    blank being punched out of the strip.

    Fred

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 34,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was not familiar with the "belly line" term either. I think that my mentor, Ed Fleischmann, just called it a "shear mark," but won't argue with any term.
    Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 6,046 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought a 'shear mark' was the person getting
    $10 Million dollars from Nigeria !
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I thought a 'shear mark' was the person getting
    $10 Million dollars from Nigeria ! >>



    funny


    ad a great coin
    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,217 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool coin. Nice high grade (AU 53 I'd guess) and doesn't appear to have been cleaned either. A nice survivor.
    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great find.

    I have a couple of doubled edge letterings, but no blanks
    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    GoBustGoBust Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice find and on a later date coin. Congratulations!

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