Half a Century of Clads.

cladking

I always figured I'd write something to mark fifty years of the "new fangled"
clad coins but now I figure it just isn't necessary since the coins can speak for
themselves.

No one hated these coins more when they were new because they displaced
the "old" coins in circulation. But those coins were all scanned by collectors
dozens of times by 1957 and there wasn't much left. Now we have fifty years
of coins that have hardly even been checked at all. Silver is my favorite metal
but if the clads were silver they'd all be picked over like the coins in circulation
half a century ago.


Did I ever mention that time flies?

ms70

I think you should write a book about modern coinage. Their history, varieties, and the ones that actually are rare. I'll bet you could write great book.

TwoSides2aCoin

Honestly, I looked at my receding hairline this morning and thought… Geeze… Was it really fifty years ago I had my first Indian Head Cent Whitman folder almost full ?
And now THOSE new coins are old already. Far from classic, but there are some classics minted in the past 50 years. No question about that.

cladking

OK.

Maybe the opening post wasn't specific enough for the subject here. I just didn't
want to tie anyone's hands as to relevancy.

What were your impressions of the "new" coins?
What do you believe the supply/ demand equations look like? Will it ever change?
Do you collect them?
Will they be around in another fifty years, twenty five years, or even ten years?
What will happen when they are retired?
Have you seen any AG's in circulation? Any old AU's?
Will the scarce varieties ever get popular?

Even comparisons to Chuckee Cheese tokens would be apropos in an age when
Chuckee Cheese tokens can be worth $1000 to collectors and contain about the
same value of metal as a quarter. Most of them seem to be as common as clads.

I'd also be most interested in observations from our younger collectors who have
only used clad and moderns in change.

SamByrd

<< <i>I think you should write a book about modern coinage. Their history, varieties, and the ones that actually are rare. I'll bet you could write great book. >>





no one I am aware of is more knowledgeable regarding clad coinage. I for sure would buy the book.

CaptHenway

I remember getting my first clad quarter in change up at the corner candy store. The owner, who was rather elderly (probably about my age now!) and wore very thick glasses gave it to me as a nickel because of the color! I took it back in and told his daughter who worked there about the new coins, so she could explain it to her father, and exchanged it for a nickel.

DIMEMAN

I personally don't like clads, but I know it had to be done. They did look better at first before they started to rework the designs. They gave Washington spaghetti hare and made FDR look worse. A clad in high grade is hard to find and has a pretty good look. I collect the Roosie clads only because they are part of the "Complete" Dime sets.

I really do wish they would change all the designs and get away from dead presidents and get back to LIBERTY and get away from the modern look.

ambro51

Despite all, a perfect coining metal. Counterfeiting reduced to zero. Durable and tarnish proof. Dug up ones are dark but never corrode. Ruined coin collecting from circulation

ms70

<< <i>They gave Washington spaghetti hare >>

(hair)

It's true.

Baley

My boy and I have been rolling coins from a long accumulation in a coffee can (probably 10 years worth of change saved) and as expected, there is a wide range of dates.

What I notice are the 1965-1967 coins that are still around, some of them are very handsomely circulated and toned and look like perfect Fines and VFs. Having them all spread out like that on a table, one can see the progression of the coins, the noble designs and high reliefs of the coins changes through the years, and the relief gets flatter as the hair and feathers get more detailed (this is not a good trade, IMO) Also what sticks out are the old Lincolns, it's really easy to pick out the coins from the1960s and early 1970's because of their nice brown color and higher relief, we even found a couple of wheat cents, the usual ones from the 1950's but also a 1941 and, shockingly, a 1919-S in VF.

And then there's the nickels, for these, coins in the 50's and even 40's are relatively common, but even more so are the recent ones with all the design changes on both sides, along with the recent cent reverses and change to the shield design. What I really notice is the durability of the clads, as Ambro says, it's a perfect metal for coinage

Coinstudy

The first three years of clad coinage had no mint marks makin them"p" or plain.Post modern coinage the Philly minted coins were generally held the higher mintage making them lesser in value.If you make them all P minted coins they are of no or lesser value to collectors.There for business and for recycling.The first three years started the recycle process.

I believe the early un circulated mint sets,special mint sets,and proof sets will be amongst the rarest as the clock the keeps ticking and collectors keep collecting as far as modern clad coins go.

They make pickup tuck beds out of aluminum maybe coins are next .

Overdate

There was plenty to be found in circulation way past 1957. I started collecting from circulation and bank rolls in the early 1960s, and over the next few years found a 1909 VDB cent, three 1950-D nickels (worth $15 each at the time, equivalent to over $100 each today), a 1921 dime, a 1932-D quarter and more than half a dozen 1955 halves.

The inauguration of the clad era was a dark time numismatically. Government hostility to coin collecting had resulted in suspension of proof sets, a date freeze and the temporary disappearance of mint marks. A few clad quarters and dimes began showing up in circulated rolls in late 1965, and except for their bright copper edges the clads looked dull and lifeless, especially compared to the lustrous AU and uncirculated silver coins that could be found in the same rolls. (The clad halves fared better because of their 40% silver content.) I think the visual contrast between clad and silver coins contributed to the acceleration of silver coin hoarding by the general public during this time.

Having grown up in the silver coin era, I still prefer them to clads and collect accordingly.

LindeDad

Some of use used them very little when they first came out.
But I sure wish I had saved some of the different MPC's we were using then.

GritsMan

CladKing has really given me an appreciation of clads--enough to fill a few folders with the best examples I could find in the past few years. I share everyone's thoughts that CK should write a book, though. I'll be no one comes close to knowing as much about clads as he does, and it could really help fire up a new generation of collectors.

LanLord

Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF.

CaptHenway

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>



How about a dual-dated 1965-2015 Special Mint Set?

EagleEye

The mint struck silver 1964-dated coins until February 1966. They began production of 1965-dated clad coins in August 1965 and they stockpiled them until they could release them everywhere at the same time. The clad quarter was put out on November 1, 1965 and the clad dime was put out in March 1966.

Here is President Johnson's speech at the signing ceremony, July 23, 1965




Distinguished Members of Congress, ladies and gentlemen:
We are gathered here today for a very rare and historic occasion in our Nation's history.

Before I make some observations that I have made note of here, I want to say to the Congress again, as I do almost daily these days, in the words of the Navy--"Well done."

When I have signed this bill before me, we will have made the first fundamental change in our coinage in 173 years. The Coinage Act of 1965 supersedes the act of 1792. And that act had the title: An Act Establishing a Mint and Regulating the Coinage of the United States.

Since that time our coinage of dimes, and quarters, and half dollars, and dollars have contained 90 percent silver. Today, except for the silver dollar, we are establishing a new coinage to take its place beside the old.

My Secretary of the Treasury, Joe Fowler, is a little stingy about making samples, but I have some here. Joe made sure that I wouldn't put them in my pocket by sending them over here in plastic.

Actually, no new coins can be minted until this bill is signed. So these strikes, as they are called, are coins that we will never use. On one side is our first First Lady, Martha Washington. On the other, a replica of Mount Vernon.

The new dimes and the new quarters will contain no silver. They will be composites, with faces of the same alloy used in our 5-cent piece that is bonded to a core of pure copper. They will show a copper edge.

Our new half dollar will continue our silver tradition. Eighty percent silver on the outside and 19 percent silver inside. It will be nearly indistinguishable in appearance from our present half dollar.

All these new coins will be the same size and will bear the same designs as do their present counterparts. And they will fit all the parking meters and all the coin machines and will have the same monetary value as the present ones.

Now, all of you know these changes are necessary for a very simple reason--silver is a scarce material. Our uses of silver are growing as our population and our economy grows. The hard fact is that silver consumption is now more than double new silver production each year. So, in the face of this worldwide shortage of silver, and our rapidly growing need for coins, the only really prudent course was to reduce our dependence upon silver for making our coins.

If we had not done so, we would have risked chronic coin shortages in the very near future.

There is no change in the penny and the nickel. There is no change in the silver dollar, although we have no present plans for silver dollar production.

Some have asked whether our silver coins will disappear. The answer is very definitely-no.

Our present silver coins won't disappear and they won't even become rarities. We estimate that there are now 12 billion--I repeat, more than 12 billion silver dimes and quarters and half dollars that are now outstanding. We will make another billion before we halt production. And they will be used side-by-side with our new coins.

Since the life of a silver coin is about 25 years, we expect our traditional silver coins to be with us in large numbers for a long, long time.

If anybody has any idea of hoarding our silver coins, let me say this. Treasury has a lot of silver on hand, and it can be, and it will be used to keep the price of silver in line with its value in our present silver coin. There will be no profit in holding them out of circulation for the value of their silver content.

The new coins are not going to have a scarcity value either. The mint is geared to get into production quickly and to do it on a massive scale. We expect to produce not less than 3 1/2 billions of the new coins in the next year, and, if necessary, twice that amount in the following 12 months.

So, we have come here this morning to this, the first house of the land and this beautiful Rose Garden, to congratulate all of those men and women that make up our fine Congress, who made this legislation possible--the committees of both Houses, the leadership in both Houses, both parties, and Secretary Fowler and all of his associates in the Treasury.

I commend the new coinage to the Nation's banks and businesses and to the public. I think it will serve us well.

Now, I will sign this bill to make the first change in our coinage system since the 18th century. And to those Members of Congress, who are here on this very historic occasion, I want to assure you that in making this change from the 18th century we have no idea of returning to it.

We are going to keep our eyes on the stars and our feet on the ground.

Note: The President spoke at 11:21 a.m. in the Rose Garden at the White House. During his remarks he referred to Henry H. Fowler, Secretary of the Treasury.
As enacted, the Coinage Act of 1965 is Public Law 89-81 (79 Stat. 254).

On October 30, 1965, the White House announced that circulation of the new 25-cent piece would begin on November 1. The White House release stated in part, "The new--nonsilver--quarter dollar will be added to the circulation of the traditional 90 percent silver quarter. Both the old and the new quarters are to circulate together.

"Approximately 230 million pieces of the new quarter will be distributed during the week beginning November 1. Initial distribution will be backed by production that will rise from 28 million to 60 million pieces a week during November, and will be still higher thereafter."

FullStrike

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>




To continue the trend of Kennedy Halves in Gold, Walkers and Mercurys in Gold, they need to strike the NA $1
and Presidential $1's in clad. Wouldn't that be a twist? It would keep them from that ugly toning also.

SanctionII

In 1965 and 1966 I lived in Denver and was 9 and 10 years old. I had been collecting as a YN from pocket change since 1963, filling Whitman albums. I remember seeing the new clad coinage in pocket change in 1966. I enjoyed looking at something new but preferred the silver dimes, quarters and half dollars. Still I collected some of the new clad coinage and stuck them in albums. I look at these coins today and I appreciate them better than I did back in the day. Some of them are fairly attractive. Many more are ugly. However the early clads have a design element (relief, basins, etc.) that is similar to the earlier silver coinage. The more recent clads with shallow basins and flat relief are not attractive at all.

WoodenJefferson

To this day, 50 years later, I still get 1965 quarters back in change, a testament to the durability of this much maligned coinage.

Overdate

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>


Can't be done without changing the inscription.

And somehow "1 oz. fine clad" just doesn't have the same cachet.

cladking

<< <i>Despite all, a perfect coining metal. Counterfeiting reduced to zero. Durable and tarnish proof. [/quote]

This is what I keep telling myself. As DimeMan said they did have to be changed and
the only positive attribute these had is that they wear like a Sherman tank on the rear
lines. They are very resistant to chemicals and even as awful as they look, most of them
actually look better with a lot of wear that tends to hide their defects.



<< <i> Ruined coin collecting from circulation >>



This is why I hated them so much. But it was also that in 1965 they seemed "fake" and
not "real" metal. The FED and mint were also doing their finest to discourage coin col-
lecting which just seemed to heap insult on injury (or fatal wounds in the case of clads).

cladking

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>



Yeah. And the clad SAE will cost as much as the silver had.

cladking

<< <i>To this day, 50 years later, I still get 1965 quarters back in change, a testament to the durability of this much maligned coinage. >>



I remember the old quarters in 1964. There were none before 1916 and the issues from
'16 to '30 were just about slick. Even the '32 quarter was usually an AG or G.

Nearly half of the '65 quarters are still in change and most are G to F-. Unlike the old quarters
in 1964 there aren't rolls and bags of any dates except the bicentennial and '99 to date issues.

The coins are survivors.

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<What I notice are the 1965-1967 coins that are still around, some of them are very handsomely circulated and toned and look like perfect Fines and VFs. Having them all spread out like that on a table, one can see the progression of the coins, the noble designs and high reliefs of the coins changes through the years, and the relief gets flatter as the hair and feathers get more detailed (this is not a good trade, IMO) Also what sticks out are the old Lincolns, it's really easy to pick out the coins from the1960s and early 1970's because of their nice brown color and higher relief, we even found a couple of wheat cents, the usual ones from the 1950's but also a 1941 and, shockingly, a 1919-S in VF.>>

What I have observed is that initially the clad relief got higher before it got lower.

The quarter EPU was increased for the bulk of the 1965 quarters. (The early silver quarters had various IGWT mottoes on the obverse. It was many years before the Red Book recognized them. Will the same thing happen here with the EPU?) High relief proof quarters reappeared in late 1968. The Eisenhower reverse went to higher relief in mid 1972 for circulation strikes. The obverse was higher in 1973. FG was sharpened on the cent in 1973. The 1976 dollar reverse was improved. The 1979 was improved early on so as to make the front rim match the reverse. The mint was really trying in those days.

Then we had a few high relief 1969 D through 1972 D quarter reverses and a few 1972 dollar reverse that match the higher relief proof versions. That was something to look for although I suspect few did.

Then came the big shift to low relief to enable single squeeze hubbing and to extend die life.

DennisH

This is a very depressing thread for me. I was 10 when clad coinage came out, and I had already begun coin collecting. I thought the new coins looked terrible, and my opinion has never changed. The passage of 50 years reminds me of when coin collecting from change died as a possibility and it saddens me greatly.

veryfine

I've always wondered about the reasoning behind the 40% half dollars.

What was the rationale for keeping some silver in the 65 -69 Kennedy halves? Was it mainly due to the popularity of JFK?
Wouldn't the 40% silver content in the half dollar instantly result in a higher value than two clad quarters or five dimes? The mint must have known very quickly that a circulating silver clad concept was doomed to failure. I'm surprised it made it as far as 1969 before adding one more to the 1970 mint set. Then, in 1971, silver was eliminated from Kennedy halves, including mint sets, but strangely made its way into the new Eisenhower dollars (mint sets and proofs only.)

An interesting and somewhat unpredictable period in coinage history.

Overdate

<< <i>What was the rationale for keeping some silver in the 65 -69 Kennedy halves? >>


Probably the same rationale as reducing the silver content of Canadian coins in the late 1960's before eliminating silver entirely. Or reducing the silver content of British coins in 1920 before eliminating it in 1947. Or countless other debasements going back to Roman times and earlier. Governments always debase their money sooner or later, but they usually do it gradually to attract less public notice or objection.

remumc

I did a science project on silver verses clad coinage my freshman year in high school that was based on an article in Coin World titled "How Bad Clad?" Took 3rd place in the Chemistry Division, and still have the medal.

veryfine

<< <i>

<< <i>What was the rationale for keeping some silver in the 65 -69 Kennedy halves? >>


Probably the same rationale as reducing the silver content of Canadian coins in the late 1960's before eliminating silver entirely. Or reducing the silver content of British coins in 1920 before eliminating it in 1947. Or countless other debasements going back to Roman times and earlier. Governments always debase their money sooner or later, but they usually do it gradually to attract less public notice or objection. >>


Yes, you're right, but wouldn't it make more sense to also use a similar silver composition for the dimes and quarters?
Seems like the 40 % silver half dollar would be instantly hoarded and all lower denominations would be ignored.

tychojoe

<< <i>I really do wish they would change all the designs and get away from dead presidents and get back to LIBERTY and get away from the modern look. >>



I find a lot to like in the clads, but when I browse my albums of classics, my thought turns exactly to the sentiment Dimeman expressed above.

Overdate

<< <i>Yes, you're right, but wouldn't it make more sense to also use a similar silver composition for the dimes and quarters?
Seems like the 40 % silver half dollar would be instantly hoarded and all lower denominations would be ignored. >>


In 1965 the Kennedy half was in a unique situation. The President had been assassinated only two years earlier, and the 90% silver 1964 Kennedy half (still being produced in 1965) was being massively hoarded by the public, as much for Kennedy's popularity as for its silver content.

To come out with a base metal version just a year after the coin's introduction would have been seen by many people as disrespectful, especially if done by his successor. Reducing the silver content to 40% solved this problem in a politically palatable manner. The coin still had the silver "look", but the silver content was low enough that the coin could continue circulating. This is shown by the vast number of 1965-69 halves available today in circulated condition.

I recall that during the later 1960's, while these coins were being produced, the price of silver never reached the point where melting 40% silver halves would be profitable.

HIGHLOWLEAVES

I never had an appreciation of the US Clad coins until Rick Snow and a few other Tucson, AZ coin dealers introduced to the collecting world the scarce WI extra leaf quarters way back in 2005 in Coin World's full page ad. I didn't even take a serious interest in these variety quarters until they started showing up here in the San Antonio, Tx area back in early 2005. Then I was hooked !! PCGS has only graded 5 MS 67 WI leaf quarters and none higher in 10 years !! Yes, they were manipulated on Ebay in 2005-2006, but that greedy crowd has pretty much moved on. This is a great time to secure a set of these "clad" quarters at a pre-promotion price. For those who could care less about these two coins, so be it; but, I enjoy getting a few examples at rock bottom Ebay prices. Sometimes, I feel like I am a passenger on the sinking "Titanic" !! Only time will tell. My granddaughter may see their values rise in the next 50 years. Thanks Sam for all of your insight. There are a few of us who still appreciate the Clad Coinage. Collect what you like. Mark.

CaptHenway

Keeping 40% silver in the half was a bone to the Senators from the silver mining states in general, and specifically Senate Majority Leader Mike Mansfield of Montana. LBJ needed votes to get his landmark Civil Rights Bill of 1964 passed, and Mansfield wanted to keep a silver coin in circulation.

See my article on the 1964-D Peace dollar in COINage in AUgust and September of last year.

machoponcho

I am a young dealer who isn't even close to remembering Silver circulate. I put together many sets from circulation back in 2006, 2007. Practically VF/XF/AU roll sets Cents 1959-2006, Nickels 1962-2006, Dimes 1965-2006, and Quarters 1965-2006. There are many tougher dates like 1969P Quarters, 1975-D Nickels, and 1973P Dimes, 1961P Cents that are silent semi-keys. However, the abundance of Mint sets still available paired with the fact these designs still circulate will keep values down for the next 20 to 50 years. Why search for a tough 1972-S Cent in circulation when you can go to the local show or shop and buy an Unc for 25 cents? For the hunt, which is fun, but might not be practical to do from circulation. Putting together sets from circulation you have to be careful, because the range of condition and looks of the coins in circulation vary widely and you will not likely end up with a matching set (especially Cents). Better off to cherrypick Unc Gem examples from the local show for 25 cents to 2 Dollars a piece. They will all be in great condition and will have similar looks, and thus, match. While a matching VF/XF set of 1965-2014 Dimes might be technically rarer on the market, tougher and cheaper to put together, the Unc sets will prevail and it will be a long, long time until we see VF/XF 1965-1983 examples actually bring a premium(50 years).

I mean, original date and mint BAGS of 5,000 unc Cents going back to 1959 are still available here and there, even if for a premium. The supply wildly outpaces demand right now.

In order to gauge the bridge between modern coinage and classic coinage, keep an eye on pre 1964 Jeffersons. That's our bridge right now. A lot of the Nickels before 1964 are harder to find in circulation, but for here and there. I couldn't put together a single 1938-1961 Nickel set from circulation in all the Nickels I searched, but came up about 8 to 12 date and mints short. Yet you can buy pre 1955 Nickels in bulk for about 10 to 25 cents piece of you keep your eyes peeled. Here we have coins that barely circulate but you can still find them, but can more easily just pay a small premium to secure them in bulk. Also, Ikes as a whole would be a good market to watch, probably 2nd behind the previously mentioned Jefferson Nickels, when it comes to looking out for the next "modern" series to sell for more than face value consistently.

DKenny

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>



US mint is planning a reverse proof set for the "50th anniversary of proof sets made in San Francisco)

veryfine

Overdate and CaptHenway,
Thanks for the very informative replies.

CaptHenway

You are welcome!

ms70

<< <i>

<< <i>Will we get a 50 years of clad coinage anniversary set?

Clad SAE in PROOF, Reverse PROOF, Unc, Enhanced Unc and Reverse clad layered PROOF. >>



US mint is planning a reverse proof set for the "50th anniversary of proof sets made in San Francisco) >>



How about a set of the Half, Quarter, & Dime that's gold/silver clad? The silver on the outside!

EagleEye

I am surprised there are not more 1965 silver quarters. With the striking of both 1964 silver and 1965 clad quarters between August, 1965 and February, 1966, we might even expect to see some 1964 clad quarters. How many 1965 silver quarters are known? Under 10? There are no known 1964 clad quarters, as far as I am aware. The mint did a great job controlling these types of errors, unfortunately.

sawyerjosh

How about posting some clad pics!

wondercoin

"How many 1965 silver quarters are known?"

I seem to recall a figure of less than a dozen known. Most are VF-low grade AU and some might have be resubmitted more than once and appear in two company holders (ex: ANACS coin ending up as a PCGS coin).

The coin in my collection is a PCGS-MS64. I am not aware of a higher graded specimen.

Wondercoin

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<I am surprised there are not more 1965 silver quarters. With the striking of both 1964 silver and 1965 clad quarters between August, 1965 and February, 1966, we might even expect to see some 1964 clad quarters. How many 1965 silver quarters are known? Under 10? There are no known 1964 clad quarters, as far as I am aware. The mint did a great job controlling these types of errors, unfortunately.>>

The overlapping clad and silver production were at different mints. Each mint was only striking in one metal per denomination.

Still one or two clad quarter reverse dies were sent to Denver and used to strike 1964 D silver quarters.

Overdate

<< <i>Overdate and CaptHenway,
Thanks for the very informative replies. >>


You're welcome. 1965 was a strange year numismatically. When the government announced that there would be no 1965 proof sets, many of us ordered proof-like sets (including four silver coins) from Canada instead. As a result, the mintage of Canadian proof-like sets skyrocketed that year.

winky

I agree with the Dimeman about dead presidents, I am tired of TR and would love to see a 1794 eagle on some new dimes.

SanctionII

I suspect that it would be difficult to have our current circulating coinage have designs placed on them that return to themes of present on US Coinage minted in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century.

Someone, somewhere, will object because they are "offended" (or better yet they will claim that they are advocates for disadvantaged groups who would likely be "offended"). These objections will be taken seriously and things will remain the same.

dlmtorts

There are lots of little recognized varieties in clads that may be the collecting way of the future. While clad mintages were enormous, surviving varieties of some clads are really scarce.

cladking

<< <i>There are lots of little recognized varieties in clads that may be the collecting way of the future. While clad mintages were enormous, surviving varieties of some clads are really scarce. >>



Indeed!

Even common varieties can be very tough except in typical condition which is atrocious or well worn at best.

Some of the scarcer varieties are tougher than hen's teeth.