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Are pedigreed slabs an annoyance? Does it effect the value of a set in anyway?
Gemyanks10
Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭
Hello everyone and Happy New Year! I have a question for the board that I have been thinking about for sometime and was looking for some insight into it. Are pedigreed slabs an "annoyance" to collectors when searching for cards they need to complete a set? I know that if it's someone famous like Dimitri Young, his name on the flip seems to add value, but what if the flips were to say "Charlie Brown Collection"? Does this effect the buying patterns for set builders if that makes sense?
I know for me, I wouldn't want 725 cards to be uniform, and have one card in the set having someone else's name on the flip. It would just trigger my OCD. I know the "buy the card, not the holder" motto and I always try to follow it, but do personalized flips tend to steer collector's away when searching for cards? I know that if you're not ever selling, it doesn't matter, but eventually, everything gets sold.
I suppose you could figure in the reholder technique when purchasing, but in any event was just wondering if any of you ever thought about this and what your thoughts were. Thanks guys and have a good holiday.
Jimmy
I know for me, I wouldn't want 725 cards to be uniform, and have one card in the set having someone else's name on the flip. It would just trigger my OCD. I know the "buy the card, not the holder" motto and I always try to follow it, but do personalized flips tend to steer collector's away when searching for cards? I know that if you're not ever selling, it doesn't matter, but eventually, everything gets sold.
I suppose you could figure in the reholder technique when purchasing, but in any event was just wondering if any of you ever thought about this and what your thoughts were. Thanks guys and have a good holiday.
Jimmy
Always looking for OPC "tape intact" baseball wax boxes, and 1984 OPC baseball PSA 10's for my set. Please PM or email me if you have any available.
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Fortunately, it almost never happens. I've only run into it one time. I bought a few pedigreed '63 Topps SGC 84 commons (why bother with the pedigree on $5-$10 cards?) and cracked them out.
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>I bought a few pedigreed '63 Topps SGC 84 commons (why bother with the pedigree on $5-$10 cards?) and cracked them out. >>
The only thing I can think of is perhaps they were part of a complete set at one time, and the original owner pedigreed the entire set? Which brings me to my next question and then I will stop lol.
Does an entire pedigreed set steer collectors away? Say there was a 1981 Topps Traded baseball set in all PSA 10's and every flip was designated as "Jack Daniels Collection" or "Buddy Smith Collection"..would you purchase this with the same respect as if every card didn't have that pedigree? Or would collectors figure in reholdering prices when bidding?
I'll be honest, I have thought of pedigree'ing a few of my smaller sets with the intention of leaving them in my family for a long time. But things/life happens and if I ever had to liquidate, I would want to get the most attention on my sets.
Sorry if I'm rambling, just thought it made for a decent topic.
Jimmy
Currently collecting 1934 Butterfinger, 1969 Nabisco, 1991 Topps Desert Shield (in PSA 9 or 10), and 1990 Donruss Learning Series (in PSA 10).
As far as the pedigree, I did this mainly because I will never sell them. The cards are almost all personalized anyway, so I figured adding the pedigree was no big deal.
Justin
Retired - Eddie Mathews Master Registry Set (96.36%) Rank 1
<< <i>
<< <i>I bought a few pedigreed '63 Topps SGC 84 commons (why bother with the pedigree on $5-$10 cards?) and cracked them out. >>
The only thing I can think of is perhaps they were part of a complete set at one time, and the original owner pedigreed the entire set? Which brings me to my next question and then I will stop lol.
Does an entire pedigreed set steer collectors away? Say there was a 1981 Topps Traded baseball set in all PSA 10's and every flip was designated as "Jack Daniels Collection" or "Buddy Smith Collection"..would you purchase this with the same respect as if every card didn't have that pedigree? Or would collectors figure in reholdering prices when bidding?
I'll be honest, I have thought of pedigree'ing a few of my smaller sets with the intention of leaving them in my family for a long time. But things/life happens and if I ever had to liquidate, I would want to get the most attention on my sets.
Sorry if I'm rambling, just thought it made for a decent topic.
Jimmy >>
The individual card would not sway me if I needed the card for a set. It's nothing to have one card re-holdered. An entire set is different. I'd have to get a good deal on the set so that re-holdering could fit into the value. It would bother me if it were one card with the pedigree in my collection, not sure the pedigree would bother me if on a whole set because then they're all the same.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
Now, I see if you buy a personalized autograph. It doesn't display as well with someone's else's name and it often reduces value but in this case, the name is on the flip.
SCAregalia.com - Masonic Regalia & Supply
I know in the coin collecting side of the hobby if you have a coin from a world class collection, it will boost your coins net worth by 10%-20%.
Later, Paul.
Just as a background point of reference, three significant collections of cards came on the major auction house block over the last 17 years or so. In two cases, the individuals were hobby pioneers well known by many, whose hobby status was in the stratosphere. I speak of Lionel Carter and Frank Nagy. Mastro Auctions handled both, and treated them respectfully as massive collections built up over a long lifetime by the pioneer. Many collectors were personal friends of these men, who both went out of their way to help budding collectors get a badly wanted card. Frankly, it was perceived as an honor to win and own part of their respective collections.
Mr. Nagy and Mr. Carter had different approaches in their collecting life. Mr. Nagy mainly just wanted the card, with its condition not of prime importance. Mr. Carter was long known for his fastidious inclination to seek out perfectly centered specimens that also had the right characteristics that we today now associate with a prime example. Lionel stood out by far back then, and was indeed well ahead of his time.
Now, Mr. Nagy preferred better condition, but did not obsess over it. However, in a very noteworthy departure from his usual modus operandi, he traded an entire run of Bowman baseball cards--gladly, as they were dupes, OR TRIPLICATES---for a complete sheet of the elegant T-204 Ramly Tobacco cards! He duly took them to a printer and had them professionally cut to the correct dimensions. They were gems indeed. Frank Nagy did not like sheets; he liked cards, and was not about to settle for just a sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!! The professional printer merely completed what the factory printer did not complete back in 1911-12, or whenever Ramly issued their unique, gorgeous cards. Mastro Fine Auctions submitted the Ramlys to SGC, who graded them with numerical grades, and I believe rightly so. The Walter Johnson was the king-sized flawless ruby of the lot---an SGC 96 MINT. In that instance, Mr. Nagy's once pride of his collection got world record prices. Ramlys just didn't survive that nice, natch. An unfair advantage, you say? He traded very expensively to secure the sheet, and I imagine paid handsomely the professionals who did the cutting. It was at great risk, mind you, for if the cutters had an oppsy!, Frank would have incurred permanent heartache. The delicate job was carried out with precision. Of course, Mr. Nagy never knew what his Ramlys sold for, because he bought them and the professional service to admire and revere them, not to flip 'em.
Lionel Carter's cards were meticulously chosen over his collecting life, and were just as cautiously cared for as well. His '51 Bowman Mantle was SGC 96 MINT, his 1938 Goudey Heads Up Hank Greenberg SGC 98 GEM MINT, and his 1953 Glendale Franks Art Houtteman an astounding SGC 84 NEAR MINT. Those were three prime examples I recall. It truly was an honor to own a card once residing in the collection of the greatly esteemed Lionel Carter, as well as Frank Nagy.
The third example, can your attention span handle a third???, was modern day graded card collector John Branca. Wow, he had some honeys---all lovingly graded by PSA. I will mention but two pillars----a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle in PSA 9 MINT, and the one and only known 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams, also in PSA 9 MINT. For today's gents who wisely prefer professionally graded cards, it was very much an honor to own a John Branca card. Mr. Branca has an eye for high quality, and many of his cards traced to significant finds of unsold stock merchandise that came out of the woodwork to our hobby.
The pedigree icing inscription was on a cake already well frosted. The cards-----first, last, and always, are what mattered. Had the condition not been authenticated and duly encapsulated, there would NOT have been bidders feverishly engaging in the auction dogfights that marked the auction of their collections.
I suppose many of us noted those pedigree inscriptions, and a few collectors decided they wanted to have at least their very own significant company set, or player registry set, for which they had labored long and hard and at great cost, to likewise have a pedigree. I know I have absolutely no status as a collector, so I for one would never choose that route. However, I can sure understand those who do. Look at how many people have foundations in their name. Parks. Centers. People like to be recognized for their achievement, hard work, and sacrifice. It's a lasting legacy thing. Usually, it's also vanity, but as I pointed out, the decision to have the third party grading company pedigree the collection was a condition of the business agreement between the auction house and the grading company. We all know why----to get bidders to bid a little higher for the emotional gratification of owning not just a historically significant card, but a card once owned by a historically significant person to the hobby.
Pedigrees have proven to work most effectively. I will always remember, roundabout--mind you, the gargantuan price paid for the cigar humidor that was the property of former President John F. Kennedy, which was among the items submitted by his widow Jackie for that grand auction---the figure I remember is $336,000. Some cigar humidor. At that price, whenever the piece is looked upon or shown by the new owner, mention or thoughts of its being THE humidor of our once cigar-enjoying beloved President will immediately occur. Pedigree is also known as provenance, and often attaches deep significance. The key is "OFTEN".
Much more than enough said. ----Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
<< <i>I think this is more than a decent topic.
Just as a background point of reference, three significant collections of cards came on the major auction house block over the last 17 years or so. In two cases, the individuals were hobby pioneers well known by many, whose hobby status was in the stratosphere. I speak of Lionel Carter and Frank Nagy. Mastro Auctions handled both, and treated them respectfully as massive collections built up over a long lifetime by the pioneer. Many collectors were personal friends of these men, who both went out of their way to help budding collectors get a badly wanted card. Frankly, it was perceived as an honor to win and own part of their respective collections.
Mr. Nagy and Mr. Carter had different approaches in their collecting life. Mr. Nagy mainly just wanted the card, with its condition not of prime importance. Mr. Carter was long known for his fastidious inclination to seek out perfectly centered specimens that also had the right characteristics that we today now associate with a prime example. Lionel stood out by far back then, and was indeed well ahead of his time.
Now, Mr. Nagy preferred better condition, but did not obsess over it. However, in a very noteworthy departure from his usual modus operandi, he traded an entire run of Bowman baseball cards--gladly, as they were dupes, OR TRIPLICATES---for a complete sheet of the elegant T-204 Ramly Tobacco cards! He duly took them to a printer and had them professionally cut to the correct dimensions. They were gems indeed. Frank Nagy did not like sheets; he liked cards, and was not about to settle for just a sheet!!!!!!!!!!!!! The professional printer merely completed what the factory printer did not complete back in 1911-12, or whenever Ramly issued their unique, gorgeous cards. Mastro Fine Auctions submitted the Ramlys to SGC, who graded them with numerical grades, and I believe rightly so. The Walter Johnson was the king-sized flawless ruby of the lot---an SGC 96 MINT. In that instance, Mr. Nagy's once pride of his collection got world record prices. Ramlys just didn't survive that nice, natch. An unfair advantage, you say? He traded very expensively to secure the sheet, and I imagine paid handsomely the professionals who did the cutting. It was at great risk, mind you, for if the cutters had an oppsy!, Frank would have incurred permanent heartache. The delicate job was carried out with precision. Of course, Mr. Nagy never knew what his Ramlys sold for, because he bought them and the professional service to admire and revere them, not to flip 'em.
Lionel Carter's cards were meticulously chosen over his collecting life, and were just as cautiously cared for as well. His '51 Bowman Mantle was SGC 96 MINT, his 1938 Goudey Heads Up Hank Greenberg SGC 98 GEM MINT, and his 1953 Glendale Franks Art Houtteman an astounding SGC 84 NEAR MINT. Those were three prime examples I recall. It truly was an honor to own a card once residing in the collection of the greatly esteemed Lionel Carter, as well as Frank Nagy.
The third example, can your attention span handle a third???, was modern day graded card collector John Branca. Wow, he had some honeys---all lovingly graded by PSA. I will mention but two pillars----a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle in PSA 9 MINT, and the one and only known 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams, also in PSA 9 MINT. For today's gents who wisely prefer professionally graded cards, it was very much an honor to own a John Branca card. Mr. Branca has an eye for high quality, and many of his cards traced to significant finds of unsold stock merchandise that came out of the woodwork to our hobby.
The pedigree icing inscription was on a cake already well frosted. The cards-----first, last, and always, are what mattered. Had the condition not been authenticated and duly encapsulated, there would NOT have been bidders feverishly engaging in the auction dogfights that marked the auction of their collections.
I suppose many of us noted those pedigree inscriptions, and a few collectors decided they wanted to have at least their very own significant company set, or player registry set, for which they had labored long and hard and at great cost, to likewise have a pedigree. I know I have absolutely no status as a collector, so I for one would never choose that route. However, I can sure understand those who do. Look at how many people have foundations in their name. Parks. Centers. People like to be recognized for their achievement, hard work, and sacrifice. It's a lasting legacy thing. Usually, it's also vanity, but as I pointed out, the decision to have the third party grading company pedigree the collection was a condition of the business agreement between the auction house and the grading company. We all know why----to get bidders to bid a little higher for the emotional gratification of owning not just a historically significant card, but a card once owned by a historically significant person to the hobby.
Pedigrees have proven to work most effectively. I will always remember, roundabout--mind you, the gargantuan price paid for the cigar humidor that was the property of former President John F. Kennedy, which was among the items submitted by his widow Jackie for that grand auction---the figure I remember is $336,000. Some cigar humidor. At that price, whenever the piece is looked upon or shown by the new owner, mention or thoughts of its being THE humidor of our once cigar-enjoying beloved President will immediately occur. Pedigree is also known as provenance, and often attaches deep significance. The key is "OFTEN".
Much more than enough said. ----Indiana Jones (Brian Powell) >>
Excellent post and thank you very much for taking the time to write all of that. I learned a great deal today and it is appreciated.
Judging by the responses thus far, and that is if I'm reading the responses correctly, is that depending on who you are in this hobby depends on whether or not the pedigree adds a premium or if it means a deduction based on reholdering.
Stooge, a.k.a. Paul, mentioned that on the coin collecting side of the world, which I know less than zero, that obtaining a coin slabbed with a pedigree from a "world class collection" could bring a 15-20 % premium. This drums up more thoughts in my mind. The biggest one being what constitutes a "world class collection"? Yes, Mr. Powell above mentioned Mr. Nagy and Mr. Carter's collections whom everyone knew about and both men seemed to be well respected and liked. It was well documented how much time and effort went into their respective collections.
But the same can be said about any one of our collections. I understand that owning a PSA 9 Mantle will probably never happen, but the time and effort that's been put into our collections, and I don't mean to speak for others, is truely priceless.
I used to think of pedigreeing as almost bragging, I don't feel that way anymore. IMO, it's nothing more than being proud of an achievement that took countless hours, months and years to complete.
At the end of the day, I guess it depends on personal preference and being proud of what you own.
Jimmy
I posted on the Honus Wagner years ago - involving Mr Nagy.
On our hobby. First, I believe we don't know where we're going if we lack an appreciation of where we came from.
Here are some of our forefathers. When we speak of T206s - we're channeling Jefferson Burdick e.g.
Here's a letter Mr Bray wrote - note he's valuing the Wagner at 25 bucks in Apr 1958!
And Mr Carter - who was a very interesting person.
So, there's many collectors who personally value having a card that was actually part of their collections - the "pedigree" card.
<< <i>I have been using JSA/BGS for my TTM results and have pedigreed my BGS slabs. I like the BGS slabs better for the long term than I do the PSA slab. As far as the pedigree, I did this mainly because I will never sell them. The cards are almost all personalized anyway, so I figured adding the pedigree was no big deal. >>
I like this and would probably be the only time I wouldn't mind a pedigree.
<< <i>
The third example, can your attention span handle a third??? >>
Yes!!!
Great post!
I collect the player owned cards and notable collectors like Lionel Carter & Frank Nagy.
Not a big fan of dealers using the pedigree as advertising, I might buy 1 as a goof & will not pay any premium for it.
Here's one that I had & thought was cool, a Casey Stengel owned Mayo
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I don't have any but pedigree cards have a place in the collecting world IMO.
<< <i>Indiana Jones you have had some very informative posts of late. Very nice work. >>
+1
Here's a guy I highly recommend people reading: George Vrechek.
His writings on the hobby are monumental IMO.
He'll carry you back to the days of Jefferson Burdick, Charles Bray along with Lionel Carter.
A major difference with these guys vs collecting today?
They did it as a hobby - for the sheer value of collecting IMO. I doubt if they even cared about investment?