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Is there any truth to the belief that patterns struck after 1916 cannot be legally held?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
It's a mystery to me!
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Don't worry. I'm pretty sure pattern subway tokens are exempt.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The Judd catalogue (5th Edition) was the only modern all-pattern book, and it ended with the various 1916 silver patterns. After those there was a small item at the bottom of the page with the headline:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. As these may not legally be held by private collectors, they are considered beyond the scope of this volume."
Curious as to why, I wrote to either the Department of the Treasury or the Secret Service, cannot remember which but probably Treasury, on Coin World letterhead, asking them why pattern coins after 1916 were illegal to possess. I received back on the appropriate letterhead a short letter that said in effect "because this book says they are." Enclosed was a photocopy of the above note from a Judd catalogue!
I sent copies of the correspondence to Abe Kosoff, and he changed the notice starting in the 6th Edition to:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. The question of legal ownership crops up and has never been satisfactorily resolved. However, the historic fact concerning their manufacture cannot be denied. Reporting that fact is a book of this kind appears to be in order.
A compilation of late trial strikes, primarily concerned with Commemorative coins but not entirely, appears in Scott's Comprehensive Catalogue and Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins by Don Taxay and reference to this book is recommended."
Kosoff then went on to list, but not number, the 1942 experimental cents, the 1944 experimental cents, the 1964 Peace Dollar, the 1965 Martha Washington Experimental pieces, the 1974 aluminum cent, and the 1976 Bicentennial Proof Trial Strikes, which I and Coin World lent him pictures of.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody at Treasury or the Secret Service ever objected to it, and that, boys and girls, is how patterns after 1916 became legal to possess!
TD
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Chris' Complete Lincoln Variety Set 1909-date
<< <i>As I have posted elsewhere, when I was working for Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse back around 1977, I was working on something involving a "modern pattern," probably either a General Motors roller press trial strike or an International Nickel Company Paul D. Merica trial strike.
The Judd catalogue (5th Edition) was the only modern all-pattern book, and it ended with the various 1916 silver patterns. After those there was a small item at the bottom of the page with the headline:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. As these may not legally be held by private collectors, they are considered beyond the scope of this volume."
Curious as to why, I wrote to either the Department of the Treasury or the Secret Service, cannot remember which but probably Treasury, on Coin World letterhead, asking them why pattern coins after 1916 were illegal to possess. I received back on the appropriate letterhead a short letter that said in effect "because this book says they are." Enclosed was a photocopy of the above note from a Judd catalogue!
I sent copies of the correspondence to Abe Kosoff, and he changed the notice starting in the 6th Edition to:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. The question of legal ownership crops up and has never been satisfactorily resolved. However, the historic fact concerning their manufacture cannot be denied. Reporting that fact is a book of this kind appears to be in order.
A compilation of late trial strikes, primarily concerned with Commemorative coins but not entirely, appears in Scott's Comprehensive Catalogue and Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins by Don Taxay and reference to this book is recommended."
Kosoff then to list, but not number, the 1942 experimental cents, the 1944 experimental cents, the 1964 Peace Dollar, the 1965 Martha Washington Experimental pieces, the 1974 aluminum cent, and the 1976 Bicentennial Proof Trial Strikes, which I and Coin World lent him pictures of.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody at Treasury or the Secret Service ever objected to it, and that, boys and girls, is how patterns after 1916 became legal to possess!
TD >>
Awesome story, CaptHenway!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The mint records are so clear and accurate from that period, and so easily accessed that they couldn't possibly need to rely upon a book for facts.
That letter referencing the book needs to be found.
<< <i>I must say, the portrait of Liberty on that 1942 1c pattern is among the most attractive I've seen. >>
That reminded me of Barber's Double Eagle pattern, but I found out it's actually from the Columbian Centavo coin. I wonder if the US Mint was making the Centavo coins for the Columbian government at the time.
Columbian Centavo
Barber Double Eagle
<< <i>As I have posted elsewhere, when I was working for Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse back around 1977, I was working on something involving a "modern pattern," probably either a General Motors roller press trial strike or an International Nickel Company Paul D. Merica trial strike.
The Judd catalogue (5th Edition) was the only modern all-pattern book, and it ended with the various 1916 silver patterns. After those there was a small item at the bottom of the page with the headline:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. As these may not legally be held by private collectors, they are considered beyond the scope of this volume."
Curious as to why, I wrote to either the Department of the Treasury or the Secret Service, cannot remember which but probably Treasury, on Coin World letterhead, asking them why pattern coins after 1916 were illegal to possess. I received back on the appropriate letterhead a short letter that said in effect "because this book says they are." Enclosed was a photocopy of the above note from a Judd catalogue!
I sent copies of the correspondence to Abe Kosoff, and he changed the notice starting in the 6th Edition to:
PIECES AFTER 1916
"A number of experimental pieces of various kinds have been made since 1916. The question of legal ownership crops up and has never been satisfactorily resolved. However, the historic fact concerning their manufacture cannot be denied. Reporting that fact is a book of this kind appears to be in order.
A compilation of late trial strikes, primarily concerned with Commemorative coins but not entirely, appears in Scott's Comprehensive Catalogue and Encyclopedia of U.S. Coins by Don Taxay and reference to this book is recommended."
Kosoff then went on to list, but not number, the 1942 experimental cents, the 1944 experimental cents, the 1964 Peace Dollar, the 1965 Martha Washington Experimental pieces, the 1974 aluminum cent, and the 1976 Bicentennial Proof Trial Strikes, which I and Coin World lent him pictures of.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody at Treasury or the Secret Service ever objected to it, and that, boys and girls, is how patterns after 1916 became legal to possess!
TD >>
Love the story Tom. I wonder why Judd thought they were illegal.
Although this is amusing, it's hardly reliable. Whomever wrote the letter - probably some underling tasked with responding to the completely unimportant question of a pesky numismatist - was clearly without a clue.
My cynical speculation is that the comment about post-1916 patterns was initially placed in the Judd book not to question the legality of such items - why would they want to do that? - but to help strengthen their position that patterns up to 1916 were legal to own. Again, purely my speculation.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I wrote to either the Department of the Treasury or the Secret Service, cannot remember which but probably Treasury, on Coin World letterhead, asking them why pattern coins after 1916 were illegal to possess. I received back on the appropriate letterhead a short letter that said in effect "because this book says they are." Enclosed was a photocopy of the above note from a Judd catalogue!
Although this is amusing, it's hardly reliable. Whomever wrote the letter - probably some underling tasked with responding to the completely unimportant question of a pesky numismatist - was clearly without a clue.
My cynical speculation is that the comment about post-1916 patterns was initially placed in the Judd book not to question the legality of such items - why would they want to do that? - but to help strengthen their position that patterns up to 1916 were legal to own. Again, purely my speculation. >>
How did they happen to have a copy of Judd to refer to?
<< <i>1916?
The mint records are so clear and accurate from that period, and so easily accessed that they couldn't possibly need to rely upon a book for facts.
That letter referencing the book needs to be found. >>
I have no idea if Coin World still has my correspondence file from 1976-1978 to go through.
If anybody from Coin World is reading this thread, have at!
TD
<< <i>I have no idea if Coin World still has my correspondence file from 1976-1978 to go through.
If anybody from Coin World is reading this thread, have at!
TD >>
The notion that a publication would have kept a correspondence file dating back nearly 40 years is a compelling reason not to doodle in the margins of your letters.
Coin Rarities Online
Most likely, it was already part of their reference library.
Or perhaps they picked up a copy to research your question.
Either way, referring to the Judd book is no way to come up with an official legal position. Just imagine what a judge would tell you if, when defending your right to own a coin, you pointed at the page in the Judd book and then said "I rest my case."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea if Coin World still has my correspondence file from 1976-1978 to go through.
If anybody from Coin World is reading this thread, have at!
TD >>
The notion that a publication would have kept a correspondence file dating back nearly 40 years is a compelling reason not to doodle in the margins of your letters. >>
Ok
Ok
But maybe they have better record keeping than the mint
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea if Coin World still has my correspondence file from 1976-1978 to go through.
If anybody from Coin World is reading this thread, have at!
TD >>
The notion that a publication would have kept a correspondence file dating back nearly 40 years is a compelling reason not to doodle in the margins of your letters. >>
On marginal notes:
Fermat's Last THeorem
<< <i>So this one I found in my wife's change jar is illegal to own?:
simply amazing...one championship "YOU SUCK" there...like in a league of your own to of found that in a pocket change hunt
<< <i> << I must say, the portrait of Liberty on that 1942 1c pattern is among the most attractive I've seen. >> That reminded me of Barber's Double Eagle pattern, but I found out it's actually from the Columbian Centavo coin. I wonder if the US Mint was making the Centavo coins for the Columbian government at the time. >>
Oh, man... The portrait on the cent pattern looks young, hopeful, and has a Mona Lisa smile. The one on the double eagle pattern looks like a Roman emperor.
What you will get is an opinion, not an answer.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.