Lester just tossed his career in the toilet...
yankeeno7
Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭
in Sports Talk
by signing with the Cubs. Wrigley field is notorious for making good pitchers bad. Cubs have made a couple of nice moves this winter but I just dont see it turning around for them.
Im happy to see this over hyped Lester drama over with.
Im happy to see this over hyped Lester drama over with.
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I'm with the Sox on this one. Fair offer, more than fair. Didn't elect to overpay. I wish him luck.
<< <i>Lester is a lefty, so left handed batters will have to pull the ball and right handers will have to go op-field on him to hit it out. >>
Huh? Why would righties have to hit opposite field? It's an above average HR park for righties.
I think the red sox could have signed him if ownership wasn't about the biggest group of idiots around. I honestly can't tell if they are just bad at this or never wanted him in the first place and for some reason couldn't just say so. The idea that they let him go in order to get him back that was bandied about in certain areas was giving them way to much credit.
<< <i>I think the red sox could have signed him if ownership wasn't about the biggest group of idiots around. I honestly can't tell if they are just bad at this or never wanted him in the first place and for some reason couldn't just say so. The idea that they let him go in order to get him back that was bandied about in certain areas was giving them way to much credit. >>
how is offering someone $22.8 million dollars per year, every year for six years, not wanting him? Maybe they should have given him an Alex Rodriguez contract? An Albert Pujols contract? A Johann Santana contract (remember him)? A CC Sabbathia contract?
I support their moves on this one.
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<< <i>I think the red sox could have signed him if ownership wasn't about the biggest group of idiots around. I honestly can't tell if they are just bad at this or never wanted him in the first place and for some reason couldn't just say so. The idea that they let him go in order to get him back that was bandied about in certain areas was giving them way to much credit. >>
how is offering someone $22.8 million dollars per year, every year for six years, not wanting him? Maybe they should have given him an Alex Rodriguez contract? An Albert Pujols contract? A Johann Santana contract (remember him)? A CC Sabbathia contract?
I support their moves on this one. >>
I can't tell if they are brain dead or playing games.
Last what December or January this was heard, “These guys are my No. 1 priority,” Lester said. “I want to be here until they have to rip this jersey off my back.”
They won the world series and they thought they could walk on water . 4 years and 70 last April they offered him and now they topped out at 6 and 135 and fell short.
Is he a different guy 6 months later ? If they offered 6 and 135 in April , then he doesn't go to free agency. If he is worth it now he was worth it then.
The only thing that changed is they stunk up the joint in the meantime.
<< <i>First off I'm pumped the Sox didn't sign him, secondly he signed a 155 million dollar contract! Please explain how his career is in the toilet? It's MLB and its garunteed, its the Cubs who will feel this worse than Lester >>
You are looking at it completely different than me. Im considering his future pitching stats. Money/contract is a whole different matter. Good for him for getting a ton of guaranteed dough for 6 years. But money has nothing to do with the numbers that a pitcher will put up. That's how I see it.
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<< <i>I think the red sox could have signed him if ownership wasn't about the biggest group of idiots around. I honestly can't tell if they are just bad at this or never wanted him in the first place and for some reason couldn't just say so. The idea that they let him go in order to get him back that was bandied about in certain areas was giving them way to much credit. >>
how is offering someone $22.8 million dollars per year, every year for six years, not wanting him? Maybe they should have given him an Alex Rodriguez contract? An Albert Pujols contract? A Johann Santana contract (remember him)? A CC Sabbathia contract?
I support their moves on this one. >>
I can't tell if they are brain dead or playing games.
Last what December or January this was heard, “These guys are my No. 1 priority,” Lester said. “I want to be here until they have to rip this jersey off my back.”
They won the world series and they thought they could walk on water . 4 years and 70 last April they offered him and now they topped out at 6 and 135 and fell short.
Is he a different guy 6 months later ? If they offered 6 and 135 in April , then he doesn't go to free agency. If he is worth it now he was worth it then.
The only thing that changed is they stunk up the joint in the meantime. >>
as you surmise, he didn't suddenly become the angel that he and the media believed him to be. He's still the chicken and beer guy who will not give a sh&* about the team that pays him. He was disingenuous with the media/fans when he stated his goals in signing. He pitched well in a contract year...no surprise there!
Seems the best pitchers to have on your squad are ones with potential who are playing in their walk year for next year's FA period!
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<< <i>First off I'm pumped the Sox didn't sign him, secondly he signed a 155 million dollar contract! Please explain how his career is in the toilet? It's MLB and its garunteed, its the Cubs who will feel this worse than Lester >>
You are looking at it completely different than me. Im considering his future pitching stats. Money/contract is a whole different matter. Good for him for getting a ton of guaranteed dough for 6 years. But money has nothing to do with the numbers that a pitcher will put up. That's how I see it. >>
I completely agree with you about money not equaling stats but my point is I dont think Lester gives a crap about his stats going forward, he is no different than any other guy in the majors. He wanted to get paid and thats his bottom line concern and after this contract is up he will be ready to retire.
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<< <i>I think the red sox could have signed him if ownership wasn't about the biggest group of idiots around. I honestly can't tell if they are just bad at this or never wanted him in the first place and for some reason couldn't just say so. The idea that they let him go in order to get him back that was bandied about in certain areas was giving them way to much credit. >>
how is offering someone $22.8 million dollars per year, every year for six years, not wanting him? Maybe they should have given him an Alex Rodriguez contract? An Albert Pujols contract? A Johann Santana contract (remember him)? A CC Sabbathia contract?
I support their moves on this one. >>
I can't tell if they are brain dead or playing games.
Last what December or January this was heard, “These guys are my No. 1 priority,” Lester said. “I want to be here until they have to rip this jersey off my back.”
They won the world series and they thought they could walk on water . 4 years and 70 last April they offered him and now they topped out at 6 and 135 and fell short.
Is he a different guy 6 months later ? If they offered 6 and 135 in April , then he doesn't go to free agency. If he is worth it now he was worth it then.
The only thing that changed is they stunk up the joint in the meantime. >>
as you surmise, he didn't suddenly become the angel that he and the media believed him to be. He's still the chicken and beer guy who will not give a sh&* about the team that pays him. He was disingenuous with the media/fans when he stated his goals in signing. He pitched well in a contract year...no surprise there!
Seems the best pitchers to have on your squad are ones with potential who are playing in their walk year for next year's FA period! >>
100% Agree, again Im glad the Sox didnt sign him.
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as you surmise, he didn't suddenly become the angel that he and the media believed him to be. He's still the chicken and beer guy who will not give a sh&* about the team that pays him. He was disingenuous with the media/fans when he stated his goals in signing. He pitched well in a contract year...no surprise there!
Seems the best pitchers to have on your squad are ones with potential who are playing in their walk year for next year's FA period! >>
Thats what I'm saying. 6 years was too long. 4 years was offered in April , I think 4 years is the most I'd want to trust him. The 70 million was too low most people thought obviously lester did.
We get treated to all this goofy propaganda about hometown discounts and management saying we don't want to over pay for older guys . The 4 and 70 offer is in line with that thinking.
So why the 6 year offer now if he is too old? why even offer 6 and 135 if everyone knew it would fall short? Why not just say good luck John?
I didn't care if he came back or not. I just think the whole thing was a distraction and a sideshow. This group thinks its much clever than facts would indicate.
Another thing , I still don't like the whole drug addict story where "team sources" threw shade on Terry Francona that was low class .
But, I guess he likes Theo, and maybe he thinks he'll help end the Cubs World Series drought.
A Cubs World Series ring would probably be a bit more historic than a Red Sox or a Giants one.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>First off I'm pumped the Sox didn't sign him, secondly he signed a 155 million dollar contract! Please explain how his career is in the toilet? It's MLB and its garunteed, its the Cubs who will feel this worse than Lester >>
Cubs should have spent on Scherzer instead.
Then make a splash getting Zimmerman next year. He had a few good years already, and he turned a corner last, as last year's jump to a 6:1 strikeout to walk ratio is a good indication that he will have sustained success going forward.
Lester should be good, but the two years previous to last, he combined for a 97 ERA+...which is below league average. He has as good a chance to head that way as he does to repeat last season.
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<< <i>First off I'm pumped the Sox didn't sign him, secondly he signed a 155 million dollar contract! Please explain how his career is in the toilet? It's MLB and its garunteed, its the Cubs who will feel this worse than Lester >>
Cubs should have spent on Scherzer instead.
Then make a splash getting Zimmerman next year. He had a few good years already, and he turned a corner last, as last year's jump to a 6:1 strikeout to walk ratio is a good indication that he will have sustained success going forward.
Lester should be good, but the two years previous to last, he combined for a 97 ERA+...which is below league average. He has as good a chance to head that way as he does to repeat last season. >>
maybe, for no other reason than separation anxiety from John Farrell, but probably not. He was a different pitcher, repertoire wise, over those two years once Farrell fled to Toronto.
Lester's cutter is his best pitch, especially to righties for obvious reasons. He threw 800 cutters in 2011, 450 in 2012, 572 in 2013, 870 in 2014. For whatever reason he cut (get it?) his cutter usage in favor of a sinker (most likely in an attempt to induce easier outs and lower pitch counts) which obviously didn't end well, especially against righties which is pretty much the endgame of his struggles over those two years in question.
You can see with the heatmap, the previous two years Lester was trying to induce weak contact with the changeup and some sinkers away to righties. His sinker and change are his weakest pitches. Yet he almost doubled the usage of both over those two years. In 2014 he cut (get it?) the changeup usage from 426 in 2013 to all of 95 in 2014. If you're a BP subscriber there exists a few articles over there where Doug Thorburn broke down his mechanics which were alleged to have been slightly altered/out of whack once Farrell split north as well.
All that said, I'm curious to know who these good pitchers Wrigley Field killed are? I mean the Cubs haven't ever really signed or traded for any high end starters...at least in the free agency era. Sutcliffe was pretty good. Even an extreme flyball pitcher like Ted Lilly did pretty well at Wrigley posting a career 89 OPS+. Dempster rolled up an 83 OPS+. When you're talking about bust Cub pitchers you're talking about who...Danny Jackson and LaTroy Hawkins or an aged Dave Smith? Edwin Jackson? Danny Jackson was 'good' I guess...but you have to understand that it's not so much just the wind-blowing-out days at Wrigley that's an issue. It's also the inability of some players to adjust to 60+ home day games. Creatures of habit and all. You can always tell who the guys burning both ends in Wrigleyville or Rush St every night are. Oh hi, Kyle Farnsworth.
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You can see with the heatmap, the previous two years Lester was trying to induce weak contact with the changeup and some sinkers away to righties. His sinker and change are his weakest pitches. Yet he almost doubled the usage of both over those two years. In 2014 he cut (get it?) the changeup usage from 426 in 2013 to all of 95 in 2014. If you're a BP subscriber there exists a few articles over there where Doug Thorburn broke down his mechanics which were alleged to have been slightly altered/out of whack once Farrell split north as well.
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That is a good piece of info...and may be a good explanation for those two bad years.