Pre-submission screening

ejguru

As someone who is increasing submitting raw cards, I have begun to investigate methods and equipment to improve my pre-submission screening. Just prior to submitting this afternoon at White Plains show, I had Dan go through my cards and man, is he good! What a benefit! He saved me from several cards that weren't near my desired grade. Anyway, he mentioned the jewler's loupe 7X, and a 10X Macrometer (sp?). Can anyone out there who knows enlighten me as to where these items can be found and price range? Any advice is much appreciated. Also, in terms of percentage, for pre-1975 issues, is expecting 66% in 8 or better unrealistic?

mikeschmidt

<<is expecting 66% in 8 or better unrealistic? >>

It depends on two things:

1) Your source of cards

2) Your pre-screening ability.

A pre-screening expert, like Dan Markel, would have no problem at all achieving 66% in PSA 8 or better (I would daresay 85%, even) if the source of cards was basically vending, with good corners, centering, etc.

Instead of trying to get 66% or better in PSA 8 -- a better challenge would be this. Pre-grade your entire submission. Shoot for 70% accuracy in predicted grade vs. actual grade. Learn your mistakes on those that did not match, and try to improve on your next submission. Many people don't always expect 8's when they submit cards -- but if you are expecting a 7 when you send a card in, and get a 7, then your mission is accomplished.

MS

ejguru

MS--Always appreciate and respect your posts. As I have bought many from Dude before, I wholeheartedly agree on his expertise. Agree that the source of the cards is the ultimate determining factor. As good as any pre-screener is, they can't "make" an 8 out of a 7. Most of my raw stuff has come from show dealers--a few I have bought from have allowed me to cherry-pick, and that has been OK.

I agree that it would be be the ultimate to nail all the cards (7's, and 9's), but don't have the funds to support submitting certain 7's yet. I actually have done what you suggested with the 225 cards submitted at Ft. Wash earlier this month, and am "hitting" 80%. I did submit some star cards that I knew would be 7's at best, and have nailed most of them (2-3 got 6's). Strangely, I did have 2 cards come back not-holdered, minimum size which was odd sicne they all (supposedly)came from the same vending run from the same dealer.

Eric

waitilltheytrytosell

You can find a number of different magnifiers, including illuminated magnifiers, on Ebay. They will help you see the card a whole lot better, but you still need to know what you should be looking for. Look at a whole bunch of 8's under your new magnifier. Then look your raw cards over real good. The better you are at looking them over, the fewer number of 7 quality cards you will be sending them. You will have no problem with 66% or better as long as you don't knowingly try to slip too many sliders by.

mcastaldi

ejguru> While you "can't make an 8 out of a 7", you - the screener - can keep yourself from buying cards destined for PSA7 (or 8 w/qualifier) holders. I really don't think there's any substitute for looking through as many cards as possible finding acceptable examples. The more unaccepable cards you can pass over in the buying process accomplishes a few things for you-
-- It saves you money
-- It saves you time when you look through the cards again at home deciding what to submit
-- It saves you a lot of aggravation in getting back cards with lower-than-expected grades.

As for whether 66% in 8 or better is realistic. . .I've submitted 72s and 75s and quite frankly if I get invoices with less than 75% in PSA8 I feel like I failed - that I did a poor job in picking out the duds. Most of my invoices have run in the 80-85% range. The best I ever did was to have a run of 75s that came back 95% PSA8 which really surprised me. But I would say that for the most part, if you're submitting anything after about 1968 commons in PSA7 will hurt you because you can generally pick them up for less than the submission fee. Of course there are exceptions, but in general you want to avoid 7s for those years.

Each issue will have unique characteristics. It took me some adjustment in knowing how to judge centering when I went from 72s to 75s. Also, 1972s tend to run short when pulled from vending. For this reason I measure each card before I buy and if it's more than 1/32" off, I pass it by. I've found if it's further off than that it will come back from PSA with an N6.

After working at it, I've found that for the most part - when looking through raw cards to buy telling an 8 from a 7 is easy. . .telling a 9 from an 8 is tough. . .telling a 10 from a 9 is usually impossible. But like most things, it comes time, patience, and practice.

Mike

dude

Gee guys, I don't know about being an expert, but I have submitted quite a few cards to PSA in my day, and I've learned alot from my early mistakes.

Just briefly, here are some things to look for:

Obviously corners. I use a 10X lighted magnifier. Mine has a graduated scale on the viewing surface, so you can measure centering.

The real key however is taking the card out of the card saver and holding it at various angles under a directional light so that you can view the surfaces. Look for wax stains front and back. These stains will give you an "ST" qualifier if submitted. The biggest thing to look for are creases or even very faint surface wrinkles. A big crease will knock a 9 to a 5 or 4. The faint wrinkles will drop a 9 to a 6. The wrinkles are the toughest to screen. Also look for a small crease across a corner. This will knock a 9 to a 7. I hope this helps.

ejguru

Waittill, Mike, Dude: Thanks for sharing the knowledge. It is appreciated. Now to wait for the next 60's registry special... Hopefully later on in '02 or early '03.

Eric

Scoop

Ejguru, at the Ft. Washington, PA show, I was able to purchase a 10x loupe with graduated scale from Levi Bleam for $100. + tax.

You can email them at levi707@erols.com, or just go to his website at www.707sportscards.com and you can get phone number to see if he has any in stock.

This loupe has saved me a ton. I download scans off of auction websites, print them, and then measure the centering. I am able to distiguish the borderline centered cards and bid appropriately. And it is even more helpful at shows looking at corners and centering of raw material.

69topps8

That's very expensive for a loupe. I bought a high end model from an optics company (Edmund Scientific) for about $50. The cheap ones go for $35 or less.

theBobs

69topps8,

Does your have the graduated scale? I have a loupe currently, but would need to purchase one that also helps reference centering.

Brian

purelyPSA

"Graduated scale". How does it work...can someone explain this? Thanks

zardoz51

If it looks o/c....it is!

69topps8

Mine doesn't but the cheaper ones do. Mine was more expensive because of the higher quality of materials used to make it. Many of the cheaper ones do have graduated scales. They are little grid lines around the lens that allow you to gauge spacings. They aren't as accurate as a caliper or micrometer though.

theBobs

69topps8, which model did you purchase?

dude

purelyPSA,

What you do is take a measurement of one border and then take a measurement of the opposite border and then add the total. Once you have the total, you take the measurement of one borders and divide it by the total. That will give you one part of the ratio. Do the same with the other side and then you'll have your complete ratio.

For example, one side measures 3 mm and the other measures 5 mm. The total is 8 mm. The ratio is 3/8 and 5/8 or 37.5/62.5. I trust this helps.

Scoop

With the scale under the 10x loupe, you can be as accurate as any micrometer. I have never been bounced a grade due to centering requirements (I always request No Qualifiers).

And you will be able to print auction scans and measure the centering very accurately so as to place bid accordingly.

metsfan

My 10x magnifier is lighted also. Was about $60, works pretty good. But,I cant figure out the modern cards. I'm getting a ton of 8's.
I lose money on 8's. Many of these looked like 9's. I wouldnt send a modern card in if I thought it was an 8. Any suggestions?

Wayne

HECK55

Wayne - I think maybe a good suggestion might be to not waste good money on modern cards? Just messing with you - sometimes you need the "modern" cards to sell so you can buy the "real" ones! What I use is a round flourescent lighted magnifier on a flexible stand like you can buy at "Office Depot" - then use a 10x loupe under that - it gets easier the more you use it. I measure with a dial caliper or digital caliper for the borders. I have not seen the loupe with the graduations on it - sounds neat though. I have not had the high % of 8's others talk about- but with the 53's I have had to choose from I hit a pretty high % of what I expected them to grade. I think they grade the "modern" cards tough compared to the "old stuff" - but then again the cardmakers today have a huge advantage over the survivors from the past. By the way - on the older cards - look at them without any magnification under the flourescent light - tilt them slowly all different ways and you will find those tiny surface wrinkles that will not show up under magnification! Boy! Am I "Ramblin" now!! Good Luck! - - - Rick

mcastaldi

wow. . .boy do I feel cheap!

I use a triplet loupe (three lenses - each at 5x) and the lenses are roughly 1" in diameter. I think I paid a grand total of $15 including shipping on eBay.

I simply eyeball centering - but by the same token I don't send anything with centering that I consider to be marginal. I've been averaging 80%+ in PSA8 or better - and I specify no qualifiers on everything I submit.

Mike

metsfan

Rick:
I didnt quite follow that. I do pretty good with the 1960's cards. It's the 1980-1990 cards I cant get the hang of. When I called CU they werent very helpful. Some of the customer service reps are very good and some dont seem to care. Anyway, I quess practice makes perfect.

Wayne

HECK55

Wayne - I have a round magnifying lense about 6 inches in diameter. It is mounted with a round flourescent light around it. This has two arms about 2 feet long that hinge with springs on them. All of this pivots on a clamp that will clamp onto the side of a table or desk. It is easy to manipulate into position and is really fairly inexpensive (about $50 - less on sale). I then hold a 10x loupe under this lense about an inch or so and hold the card under that moving the two away or towards the large lense to get focus. Doing this you don't have to hold a loupe smashed into your eye squinting until your cheek muscles start cramping. The tilting just reflects the glossy color of the card and makes it easy to spot the wrinkles - no magnification needed - in fact magnifying hides the wrinkles. I wish I knew what PSA uses. If I study about 20 - 25 cards an hour to prescreen them I need a break bad after about two hours - shoulders and neck will be shot! On the new cards that UV coating seems to have a lot of very fine scratches right out of the packs - especially the dark colored cards. Try checking out a few Upper Deck Shaq RC's (black) - I don't see how there could possibly be any 10's of this card! A lot like the 71 Topps I guess. Anyway - I know the contraption I use sounds complicated but if you'll try it with an open mind it will give you good results. Rick

HECK55

Mike - What is the "Manhatten Project"? I thought that was some "disco"-( cough choke choke )group back in the 70's? Rick