LochNess; <<What a fabulous collection indeed! I am drooling over this one, and I don't even collect talers>>
I admit in my article that my knowledge of the various varieties is limited. I consulted Ulrich Kunker, Achim Schramm and an Austrian who declines to be mentioned. I graded the coins on my own, in accordance with U.S. grading criteria. The quality was incredible, some of the best Talers, of any issue, that I have ever seen. I particularly liked the natural toning and relative originality of the coins.
Very well written article. I reviewed quite a few of them and must say that the breadth of the collection is what impressed me. Some truly scarce issues. The "look" of the coins is one that caters to collectors who prefer largely toned coins, none were blast white. I ended up purchasing one which is quite dark yet conditionally scarce as many others. I don't recall seeing such a broad collection of Talers offered to the public in one auction.
Good article! I think you do a good job addressing the quality of the offering, yet effectively remind readers not to overuse the term 'rare' to describe the bulk of the collection. Two comments that struck me as I was reading the article:
1). "....both note that relevant collecting trends in Europe have been changing. Not as many people are each seeking hundreds of different talers and more European collectors are tending towards selecting talers of relatively high quality"
--> I think this is a good observation and something that we have informally been seeing in the world coin inventory which has made their way to the shores of the US. The upper end has continued to climb in recent 2 years as the middle market for talers VF/XF/AU/low MS) has stayed somewhat flat.
2). A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.
--> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment.
Is Achim Schramm still an active dealer? I see his significant footprint on the hobby and I am curious to know more. I can't imagine the quality of the collection he has assembled.
<< <i>2). A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.
--> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment. >>
How does one tell for certain between slight circulation rub and cabinet friction, and from manufacturing defect (e.g., weakness of strike)? If we had three coins of the same type, all very attractive, choice and lustrous. One is well struck, untoned and has no high point discoloration. Another is of average strike, lightly toned, and has high point discoloration. The third is unevenly struck, has areas of weakness of strike including at the high points, with nice even patina.
How would you rate the three coins in terms of technical grade, desirability and price?
On the U.S. side, the notion of micro-grading, where a blazingly lustrous Early Dollar with a trace amount of disturbance on Liberty's hair gets AU58 while a dipped and stripped piece gets MS60, has already started to shift.
Me, cited by WorldCoinGuy: << A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.>>
World CoinGuy: --> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment. >>
Yes, I have spent countless hours viewing auction lots, of both U.S. and world coins. I have written hundreds of articles relating to coin auctions and I have referred to my notes while writing about rare coins in other contexts. On innumerable occasions, I have discussed specific coins with leading experts.
EVP: <<How does one tell for certain between slight circulation rub and cabinet friction, and from manufacturing defect (e.g., weakness of strike)? If we had three coins of the same type, all very attractive, choice and lustrous. One is well struck, untoned and has no high point discoloration. Another is of average strike, lightly toned, and has high point discoloration. The third is unevenly struck, has areas of weakness of strike including at the high points, with nice even patina.
It takes years of experience along with a natural aptitude for grading coins. When I talk about specific coins with JA and other experts on the phone, I find that we are often in agreement as to which coins have slight friction and which have substantially circulated. There is no easy way, though, to explain such matters.
In fairness to our hosts, there is a lot that may be learned by reading material and examining images on the PCGS website, especially Photograde online and PCGS CoinFacts. I also recommend Scott Travers' books. Even so, there is no substitute for viewing coins in actuality, and directing questions to experts. Unfortunately, the number of people who know how to grade vintage coins, in the AU-55 to MS-67 range, keeps dwindling. More and more coin buyers and people in the coin business have become dependent upon certifications. Another issue is that some of the most talented graders are coin doctors and/or cynical crack-out artists who do not wish to share their knowledge.
Zohar
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DPOTD
World Collection
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German States Collection
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>“The collection came in with the coins in old paper envelopes,” ... >>
More evidence that 'registry set collecting' is still premature. In any field, IMHO.
What a fabulous collection indeed! I am drooling over this one, and I don't even collect talers:
<< <i>Prooflike Nurnberg Taler, 1711-GFN. Dav-2475; KM-275. NGC MS-64PL. Finest certified >>
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
LochNess; <<What a fabulous collection indeed! I am drooling over this one, and I don't even collect talers>>
I admit in my article that my knowledge of the various varieties is limited. I consulted Ulrich Kunker, Achim Schramm and an Austrian who declines to be mentioned. I graded the coins on my own, in accordance with U.S. grading criteria. The quality was incredible, some of the best Talers, of any issue, that I have ever seen. I particularly liked the natural toning and relative originality of the coins.
The Rockaway Collection of Silver German Coins, mostly Talers
Proof British Gold Coins star in New York
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
1). "....both note that relevant collecting trends in Europe have been changing. Not as many people are each seeking hundreds of different talers and more European collectors are tending towards selecting talers of relatively high quality"
--> I think this is a good observation and something that we have informally been seeing in the world coin inventory which has made their way to the shores of the US. The upper end has continued to climb in recent 2 years as the middle market for talers VF/XF/AU/low MS) has stayed somewhat flat.
2). A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.
--> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment.
Gorny background (Schramm connection)
<< <i>2). A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.
--> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment. >>
How does one tell for certain between slight circulation rub and cabinet friction, and from manufacturing defect (e.g., weakness of strike)? If we had three coins of the same type, all very attractive, choice and lustrous. One is well struck, untoned and has no high point discoloration. Another is of average strike, lightly toned, and has high point discoloration. The third is unevenly struck, has areas of weakness of strike including at the high points, with nice even patina.
How would you rate the three coins in terms of technical grade, desirability and price?
On the U.S. side, the notion of micro-grading, where a blazingly lustrous Early Dollar with a trace amount of disturbance on Liberty's hair gets AU58 while a dipped and stripped piece gets MS60, has already started to shift.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Me, cited by WorldCoinGuy: << A large percentage of the coins in “The Rockaway Collection” had an extremely small number of contact marks and/or hairlines. Indeed, many of the coins in this collection scored high in the technical category. It would not be unusual for an AU-58 grade taler in “The Rockaway Collection” to have much fewer noticeable contact marks and/or hairlines than a MS-63 or -64 grade taler of the same date and type found in another collection. In such cases, many collectors might favor a coin that is accurately graded AU-58 over one that is accurately graded MS-63, by widely accepted criteria in the U.S.>>
World CoinGuy: --> This is a very interesting observation and one that suggests that you have put eyes on a significant number of auction pieces over the years. I think you hit the mark on this comment. >>
Yes, I have spent countless hours viewing auction lots, of both U.S. and world coins. I have written hundreds of articles relating to coin auctions and I have referred to my notes while writing about rare coins in other contexts. On innumerable occasions, I have discussed specific coins with leading experts.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, part 9: European Coins
Choice, historical British Coins Auctioned in New York
EVP: <<How does one tell for certain between slight circulation rub and cabinet friction, and from manufacturing defect (e.g., weakness of strike)? If we had three coins of the same type, all very attractive, choice and lustrous. One is well struck, untoned and has no high point discoloration. Another is of average strike, lightly toned, and has high point discoloration. The third is unevenly struck, has areas of weakness of strike including at the high points, with nice even patina.
It takes years of experience along with a natural aptitude for grading coins. When I talk about specific coins with JA and other experts on the phone, I find that we are often in agreement as to which coins have slight friction and which have substantially circulated. There is no easy way, though, to explain such matters.
In fairness to our hosts, there is a lot that may be learned by reading material and examining images on the PCGS website, especially Photograde online and PCGS CoinFacts. I also recommend Scott Travers' books. Even so, there is no substitute for viewing coins in actuality, and directing questions to experts. Unfortunately, the number of people who know how to grade vintage coins, in the AU-55 to MS-67 range, keeps dwindling. More and more coin buyers and people in the coin business have become dependent upon certifications. Another issue is that some of the most talented graders are coin doctors and/or cynical crack-out artists who do not wish to share their knowledge.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
My duplicate post was an accident.