Serious question about NGC and forgeries

astrorat

I have always found it somewhat ironic when a TPG "authenticates" and encapsulates a forgery. Not that I disagree, I just find it odd. With so many collectors of contemporary counterfeits, I can see the potential for encapsulating them.

Does anyone know why NGC Ancients grades forgeries (and labels them as such)?

It's a serious question. I have asked NGC Ancients, but have not received a response. I have no interest in trashing NGC Ancients, I am just curious why they slab forgeries (and label as such) rather than returning coins as upgradable. Any ideas?

JCMhouston

You answered your own question, lots of people collect contemporary forgeries. I believe ANACS used to do the same, it seems very educational to me also.

EVillageProwler

Same with Anglo-Saxon coins - contemporary counterfeits abound. They are widely collected, expensive, and I think some even have their own catalog numbers. I don't know if/how NGC slabs them (because that market is still largely raw), but they are not treated as less-worthy collectibles. In fact, I've been a strong underbidder on many counterfeit Aelfred and Edward (the Elder) pieces. A recent auction even had an exciting contemporary counterfeit of an Aelfred Londonia penny.

EVP

STLNATS

+1 to most of the comments. I assume you're referring to forgeries made at about the same time as the target coins versus those of more recent manufacture, however. Some of these, e.g., roman plated denarii, barbarous radiates of the 3rd century AD or "celtic" tetradarchm imitations formed an important part of the money supply in certain places and times, often with a history of their own.

astrorat

Yes, I am referring to contemporaneous counterfeits, not modern-day forgeries.

LochNESS

Yes it is somewhat ironic however consider these two perspectives:

• big part (say 25%) of TPG's duty is providing positive identification, in addition to authentication / encapsulation / grade

• entombing the counterfeit may help prevent future buyers from being conned

I suppose these are really one in the same. ID the fake and slab it so it can't be shopped around as the real deal. That is my best argument in favor of the practice. That having been said, I don't collect counterfeits but JCM's educational stance also makes total sense.

astrorat

<< <i>Yes it is somewhat ironic however consider these two perspectives:

• big part (say 25%) of TPG's duty is providing positive identification, in addition to authentication / encapsulation / grade

• entombing the counterfeit may help prevent future buyers from being conned

I suppose these are really one in the same. ID the fake and slab it so it can't be shopped around as the real deal. That is my best argument in favor of the practice. That having been said, I don't collect counterfeits but JCM's educational stance also makes total sense. >>

I am not sure if NGC Ancients is slabbing modern counterfeits, like the ones from Bulgaria, that are very deceptive. I think they are slabbing the counterfeits that circulated along with real ancients. Again, I can't seem to get an answer from NGC Ancients.

STLNATS

<< <i>Yes, I am referring to contemporaneous counterfeits, not modern-day forgeries. >>



That's what I figured. If one wants to slab ancients, then it seems reasonable to include these. Sometimes they were made to deceive the public (eg plated denarii) but sometimes provided a supplement or even bulk of coinage during shortages or beyond the Roman frontiers. I'm reading a book about the coins in the time of Tiberius that makes this later point rather well. I have a Parthian survey collection and have included a few interesting contemporary/ancient copies which I think enhance it and I think other collectors do the same.

Modern fakes are another animal altogether. This is an ever changing and increasingly dangerous situation as this recent auction demonstates: lots withdrawn. What's also interesting about this discussion is not everyone agrees that all if the withdrawn lots were, in fake, spurious. And these are well experienced collectors/dealers commenting. But it is clear that the huge influx of fakes has a lot of folks "looking over their shoulder." Just MHO but beyond the obvious crackout of those coins deemed to be fake, the wide variety of ancients and increasing ability of forgers would seem to challenge the resources of any TPG.

LochNESS

Unless the forger is going to engrave their own die and hammer-out their forgeries, I suspect TPG's can detect the difference at the microscopic level if not with a hand-held loupe. As for the practice of altering genuine coins to forge a rare variety (changing dates, etc) this always leaves trace evidence like scratches or other surface damage. Because of these reasons, I am optimistic that forgers of ancients will always be a step or two behind TPGs.

STLNATS

<< <i>Unless the forger is going to engrave their own die and hammer-out their forgeries, >>



That's precisely what forgers to deceive collectors have been doing since at least Becker in the early 19th century and very high quality fakes are becoming more prevalent (e.g., the auction with withdrawn lots I cited) and sophisicated. Ancients were produced in a very different way than modern coins. Ancient dies were all hand cut and each die was somewhat different so there's a ton of variety even for relatively scarce or rare issues. Unlike modern machine stuck coins from standardized dies (the products of which more or less look identical) it can take a specialized well trained eye to tell the difference between a legit variety, a contemporary counterfeit and one of these well made, modern fakes, sometimes based on subtle stylistic differences. And as indicated in the discussion in the forum thread I cited, there's sometimes disagreement amongst these experts.

Alterations to enhance features on worn coins does occur and usually are pretty easy to spot even by less specialized collectors since the style is often wrong. I can't recall an alteration of a date on an ancient (since they aren't really collected the same way as modern coins) and alterations of types are pretty uncommon. Forum Ancient Coins hosts a fake coin listing based on the observations of its members, but frankly its increasingly the tip of the iceberg. My sense from following and occassionally participating in the FAC group (I have some experience in folles of RIC VI) for a while is that not only is the quality of fakes improving rapidly, but the forgers are usually close to parity with these specialized collectors and dealers with TPGs trailing behind as diagnostics become identified and well known.

A most egregious, relatively recent case was a NGC certified, extensively researched Attic Dekadrachm that was withdrawn from auction when a number of other specialists pointed out some problems with it nd others that had recently appeared on the market. Here's the links: original thread followup thread

BTW, there is a discussion of what the guarentee of NGC for ancients means in the first thread. Worth reading.

LochNESS

<< <i>Ancient dies were all hand cut and each die was somewhat different so there's a ton of variety even for relatively scarce or rare issues. Unlike modern machine stuck coins from standardized dies … >>

Yup that's why I said "engrave their own die" instead of "cast" "stamp" or "press."

I didn't think they (forgers) actually did it though! That's crazy. If the forgers are that talented, why not take the legit path and make artsy show pieces for sale instead of fake coins. I guess I don't have the mind of a crook to rationalize putting in so much effort.

Sapyx

<< <i> am not sure if NGC Ancients is slabbing modern counterfeits, like the ones from Bulgaria, that are very deceptive. I think they are slabbing the counterfeits that circulated along with real ancients. Again, I can't seem to get an answer from NGC Ancients. >>


They'd only be slabbing contemporary (ancient) counterfeits. No-one would deliberately slab a modern one. Slabbing a modern fake would be pointless; a buyer could simply bust it out of the slab again and sell it as a raw, presumably-genuine coin.


<< <i>...lots of people collect contemporary forgeries... >>


People who collect such ancient counterfeits are following a venerable tradition. If one defines a "coin collector" as someone who is prepared to pay more than face/bullion value to possess a coin, then the oldest known record of "coin collectors" is in Pliny's Natural History (Book 33 Chapter 46), where he says "It is truly marvellous, that in this art, and in this only, the various methods of falsification should be made a study: for the sample of the false denarius is now an object of careful examination, and people absolutely buy the counterfeit coin at the price of many genuine ones!".


<< <i>I didn't think they (forgers) actually did it though! That's crazy. If the forgers are that talented, why not take the legit path and make artsy show pieces for sale instead of fake coins. I guess I don't have the mind of a crook to rationalize putting in so much effort. >>


Slavey is a modern mass-producer of fake ancient coins, one of the originators of the "Bulgarian School" of fake-makers. His coins are made from hand-cut dies using the traditional techniques. He claims his motivation is to give people who cannot afford to buy the real thing a chance to see and own authentic-looking ancient-style artwork. He refuses to deface his replicas with the word COPY (in compliance with US law) unless his customers insist upon it, because doing so would compromise the quality of the art. Slavey's artistic style is different to that seen on genuine ancient coins, enough so that an expert can tell them apart fairly easily. Yet they are among the most commonly encountered fake ancients found in the hands of non-experts.

LochNESS

Fascinating.