Katanga 1961 gold 5 Francs MS67

LochNESS

Originally titled "Got fruit?" but nobody posted any other coins depicting produce. So I changed the title to a more search-friendly description. You know, in case I ever need to retrieve it from our archives. ~LN



edit: This suspect website actually has a decently well-written, brief history of the country for those who are interested. Just don't buy anything from them

LochNESS

Nobody else has coins depicting produce? Yeah I guess it's not that common on coins huh.

lordmarcovan

I was wracking my brains to see if I had any ancients with grapes on 'em. Don't think so.

There are oranges (for the House of Orange, I guess) on the back of some of the Dutch 1-cent pieces of the early 20th century, and I have some of those, but no pix.

Edit- there might be some fruit in the cornucopia there. That's about the best I can do, and that coin isn't even mine anymore, since the Pukin' Punkin bought it (speaking of fruit).




BTW, I sort of like the incuse lettering on that Katanga coin. Very modernistic and not my usual cup o' tea, but I actually don't dislike it. It "works", somehow. (And being gold and high grade never hurt a coin's popularity, right?)

STLNATS

<< <i>Nobody else has coins depicting produce? Yeah I guess it's not that common on coins huh. >>



Just top of mind and I don't have photos handy but post war Italy featured such including grapes on the L 5. Israel 1948-9 25 mil had grapes and the later minor coinage had a variety of fruits. I'm sure that there's a lot of other issues which actually circulated including several ancients. For instance, Plant (Greek Coin Types) features several coins with pomegranates (Side, Melos, Cyrene) and a bunch (pun intended) with grapes (Eretria, AE of Herod Agrippa, Naxos, several cities in Lydia, Corcyra, etc etc). Several of these also, appropriately enough, have designs which include Dionysus.

I too like the Katanga gold piece, and altho it didn't circulate (I tend to avoid NCLT unless compelling designs and/or cheap), snagged a lovely example when gold was cheap along with the 1 and 5 franc bronze coins. As Lord M says, its a great, modernistic design and worth having. It also fits the money on money category with the reverse.

LochNESS

<< <i>.. post war Italy featured such including grapes on the L 5. Israel 1948-9 25 mil had grapes and the later minor coinage had a variety of fruits … >>

Didn't wanna be the only one posting photos in my own thread, but here's some of my Israeli fruit:


I have many raw, circulated, low-grade/value Italy - and I'm sure other nations - with fruit in my red Saflip boxes. Not imaged.



<< <i>I too like the Katanga gold piece, and … snagged a lovely example when gold was cheap … >>

Gold is cheap now That's why I bought it

I've got a nice bronze 1 France in MS but not imaged. Bought it raw, had it slabbed, but never photographed.

marcmoish

hey whats with the crud?

LochNESS

When I was a little kid my dad gave me what he described as "the first Israeli mint set" in its original, soft PVC holder. I cherished the coins and handled them very delicately. I certainly never removed them from their holder. Fast-forward about twenty years, I am submitting my first batch to PCGS and of course included these coins. I had no knowledge of coin conservation, and had never washed or bathed any coins. Hence the crud.

Some of the coins in the set are quite lovely and graded 65 or better. But this one not so much. I'm afraid it may be beyond saving. That is why I have not cracked it out for a cleaning.

edit: Since PCGS announced their conservation service (last year?) I've considered sending this back to them. I'm on the fence. I know the service has helped many coins, I just don't know if this one can be helped.

STLNATS

Ok here's a couple of cheapie sets which I happen to have at home. I've always liked these since they're attractive coins that actually circulated. The holders are nice too.

1974 Vatican set, the L.50 are olives and the L.500 are grapes with an ear of cereal of some sort. The other side is papal arms and date. This type was the standard Vatican coinage for most of the 1970s and for years these went begging for less than $10 a set . I'm not sure that the silver L. 500 made it into circulation, but some of the others did and I recall finding a couple in change.



The other is a 1969 Israel set. The obverses are designs taken from ancient coins, the reverse is basically just the denomination. Again there were a lot of these sets made since Israel had a strong following and later it was easy to pick up a handful from my favorite dealer who had no other outlet for them (most of his customers being US collectors) for $2-3 each. The 5 agorot and 1 Lire feature pomegranates and the 10 agorot has a palm tree with a couple bunches of what I assume are dates.



BTW, the 50 pruta coin appears to be the issue made of nickel plated steel. The rust and green suggests the acid from the PVC broke through the nickel coating and has attacked the steel beneath. These are fairly cheap coins as I recall; sentimental reasons aside, it'd seem to be hard to cost justify bothering with conserving the coin at this point. The use of PVC in its packaging damaged a number of wonderful Israeli commems as well and I think has probably contributed to the lack of demand for this series; which is fine by me since I like picking up undamaged coins for a fraction of what they cost when popular.

TIF2

Fruit, hmm. There are many ancient coins featuring grapes but sadly I have none.

I do have a nice Nero sestertius in which you can see a variety of produce (like some fruit) spilling forth from Annona's cornucopia.

lordmarcovan

Holy smokes, that's a nice Nero!

Nessie- I approve of your whole modern coin and low mintage and themed coin schtick.

It's refreshing to get that perspective, since my numismatic mind has always been stuck in the past... usually the very distant past.

And modern coins have a lot to offer.

LochNESS

Thanks, LordM! and yes the themed threads can span all the way back, not just modern Speaking of which ...

Excellent sestertius TIF2! The cornucopia TOTALLY counts towards the produce theme. I love it! Excellent strike and I love the patina.

STLNATS, thanks for getting those photos up. I have zero Vatican coins and have long been trying to determine which piece to add to my OFEC set. The L.500 is a nice design. And $2-3 is a decent price in today's market (for the Israel annuals). They go $4-5 on eBay maybe $6 if exceptionally lustrous. Sometimes in a bulk lot you can get $3 each but I don't think I've seen $2. I've got two blue packs which my dad gave me many years ago. Fortunately that 50 Prutot which I posted above was the only one with green and rust. Ironically, it's also the only one with fruit which is why I posted it here. The others have pitchers and branches / sprigs. The 500P may have pomegranates, I can't recall because mine isn't photographed; it wasn't included in the mint set so I had to purchase it separately (found a nice MS example years after having the others slabbed so it's still raw).

Zohar

TIF - WOW!

My produce here - ISRAEL SET

STLNATS

I have zero Vatican coins and have long been trying to determine which piece to add to my OFEC set.

There are a lot of interesting varieties, but a silver L 10 of 1929-1941 would be hard to beat. Several years are available for high grade, well struck coins (1929, 1933-4 jubilee, or 1936). The subsequent type (1942-6) would also be a fine representative, but these are hard to find and tend to get pricey after 1942. If you want to go upmarket a bit, the larger gold L 100 has got to be a fav; the 1929 and 1933-4 jubilee coins are relatively affordable in nice grade.

7Jaguars

Orange was also a symbol of Florence for hundreds of years...

Icollecteverything

OK, this is strange. When I saw this I had to go find my one Katanga coin which is a cheapo copper one. It appears to be the exact same design even with the same value of 5 francs. Are they the same size? If so, someone is going to start gold plating the copper ones.

STLNATS

<< <i>OK, this is strange. When I saw this I had to go find my one Katanga coin which is a cheapo copper one. It appears to be the exact same design even with the same value of 5 francs. Are they the same size? If so, someone is going to start gold plating the copper ones. >>



Yup, same size but different weight so have a very different feel in hand (unless entombed in plastic, of course). I'm not sure that the bronze entered circulation but a lot of them seem to have ended up as Littleton approvals at some point. And, the coins are over a half century old (gasp) and I'm sure some have been plated over the years to foist onto the unsuspecting.

LochNESS

<< <i>(unless entombed in plastic, of course). >>

Pretty sure the weight is still significantly different. Yup I just held both and the gold still weighs more even in the plastic.

I'm not sure what a Littleton approval is (yes, I know you are referring to the Littleton coin company) but I bought my 1 Katanga coin raw on eBay. Had it slabbed by ANACS because I wanted a slab (I like the protection they offer) but didn't wanna pay PCGS pricing for such a low-value coin. Anyway ... got a nice deserving MS grade. You, too can find lovely raw Katanga coins on eBay any day of the week!

edit to add: Just want to remind everyone that no MS coins have entered into circulation, especially not those sealed in original mint packaging such as the Israeli and Vatican sets shown above. If you want a coin that actually circulated you are looking for AU58's

STLNATS

<< <i>
edit to add: Just want to remind everyone that no MS coins have entered into circulation, especially not those sealed in original mint packaging such as the Israeli and Vatican sets shown above. If you want a coin that actually circulated you are looking for AU58's >>



Well, yeah. I think you've missed the distinction that the term "circulating" coins (or similar terms) does not mean that a given coin actually circulated, but rather that it was made for actual circulation as money versus those made for collectors or other purposes (some/many of which are referred to as non-circulating legal tenders or NCLT). And, of course, when first released by the mint all coins are, by definition, mint state/uncirculated and sometimes its possible to obtain fresh mint rolls from a bank containing coins that are identical to those available in mint sets. For instance, I have a roll or two of the first Latvian coins obtained by a friend from a local bank and all are mint state. At any rate, the 5 franc gold was not made for circulation while the bronze coins were made to circulate but I'm not sure how many of the bronzes actually circulated before the rebellion in Katanga collapsed. Certainly a lot of very pretty uncs seem to have been sold in the little Littleton Coin Company approval envelopes.

BTW, the Vatican coins in the 1974 set (except maybe for the silver) were indistinguishable from those that were made available for circulation. Per Krause, there were 120k sets produced, but substantially more of some of the coins, especially the L. 50 and L. 100 were produced specifically to be put into circulation. So it is quite possible that a MS coin of these denominations could have been sourced from breaking a set OR from mint fresh rolls. My sense is that this is also true for the Israeli coins, but I'm not certain.

LochNESS

<< <i>Well, yeah. I think you've missed the distinction… >>

Actually it is you, STLNATS who missed. You completely missed my point. I was trying to avoid harping on this subject. I apologize for your confusion. Here is my point. You often comment whether or not a coin circulated, how you "avoid NCLT," etc. But in the same breath you display two mint products clearly (in your words) "made for collectors." You say you like the Vatican set because "they're attractive coins that actually circulated" but they never entered circulation. They've been sitting in the holder from day one. If you want an attractive coin that actually circulated, buy an AU58.
Other Vatican coins with the same design, which may or may not have been struck by the same dies months apart, were sent to banks (yes, in rolls) and circulated but not yours. So what makes them any better (in your opinion) than a Katanga Franc which intended to circulate but never got the chance because the country only existed for 2 years? And what's wrong with a gold issue of the circulated design? It's the exact same design as the circulating legal tender.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect them all but I do not appreciate condescending tone. I've been collecting and handling coins for over 25 years, and have posted thousands of times on these boards about NCLT and such. I don't need you to define vocabulary terms and educate me about buying rolls of coins from the bank. If you want to collect mint products aka "mint sets" I welcome it, but then you can't critique my mint products.