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Not gold but....

... I can't help but think holding a bronze piece such as this during the 4 century B.C. would have given the bearer a sense of wealth for not only its value but also for its resemblance to that precious metal.

I wonder if I have an unusual or a common alloy for a bronze coin of Phillip II.

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AE Bronze of Phiilip II 18-18.5mm 5.4g

Comments

  • I think it's just harshly cleaned
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  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,875 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, that I know.
  • Sorry, I thought you were wondering why it was this color imageimage
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  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've seen some of those that do seem to have a brassier color.

    This one (also a bit overcleaned) had that look.

    image



    Funny thing about the reverse image of your coin is that it created a sort of optical illusion on my monitor, where the horseman on the reverse appeared incuse to me at first look. I actually kind of had to reset my eyes.

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  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Just re-reading this thread after the more recent adventures into the world of "rulers named Philip II" ... Lord M will know what I mean. Anyway, can definitely tell the difference between Philip II of Macedon's portrait and that of Philippus II aka Philip the Younger. Big difference seeing them now side-by-side. Also, interesting this coin doesn't have much writing to speak of, whereas the younger one has quite a bit on both faces. hmm.
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  • STLNATSSTLNATS Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭
    I think that Lord M is right on this but sometimes/often the purity of the metal itself varied substantially, especially in series/types that were issued for some period of time. There's been an ongoing and interesting thread on Forum Ancient Coins about the specific alloys used in folles of the tetrarchy (ca AD 294 to 312 or so). The romans probably had much better control over the metal content than the Greeks 500 years earlier I suspect, but even then there appears to have been a wide range of what individual coins actually contained. Unless artificially recoloured after cleaning (a common practice BTW) the surfaces of individual coins can show a lot of variation.

    Also, if you look at the curls on Apollo's hair on the obverse it is rather different than that on Lord M's piece. Not a big deal since dies were hand cut but they were probably minted at different times and I'd bet that the metal content is slightly different (altho the only way to be sure is a destructive analysis which might be a bit extreme to demonstrate a minor point image ) Combined with a couple of thousand years in the dirt with the application of various cleaning chemicals and techniques can produce some unusual looking surfaces.

    I can't help but think holding a bronze piece such as this during the 4 century B.C. would have given the bearer a sense of wealth for not only its value but also for its resemblance to that precious metal.

    I think this is a good point that modern collectors (including myself) often forget. Even with today's somewhat elevated bullion prices, coins had tremendously greater value/buying power in the ancient world and presentation was important. And I'm sure this latter point was not lost on issuers. Adding a bit more tin to the mix might create a more brassy/golden look and make the coin more desirable than a more copper coloured one.

    What fun!

    image
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  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is interesting to think about- and I suspect maybe some of what Swampboy was ruminating on- how these bronzes must have looked when they came fresh off the dies with that "new penny" look of bright copper... or brass. It is bound to be a different look than we are accustomed to seeing, due to all the varieties of patina most ancient AE coins have acquired (and sometimes lost) over the past two millennia.

    It is to my knowledge nearly impossible to imagine what an unpatinated bronze with some or all of its original mint red remaining would look like after some freakish survival into modern times.

    Sometimes we can get a little glimpse, though.

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  • STLNATSSTLNATS Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    It is to my knowledge nearly impossible to imagine what an unpatinated bronze with some or all of its original mint red remaining would look like after some freakish survival into modern times.

    Sometimes we can get a little glimpse, though. >>



    The irony is that the Aurelian you linked to is a reformed Antoninianus with the XXI designation on the reverse in exergue. While there's a strong (and sometimes almost violent) disagreement about what that mark meant specifically, everyone pretty much agrees that these coins were carefully silvered so the surface of a mint fresh coin would have looked more like a brand new pre-1965 US quarter. In terms of wear this coins is about as good as it gets. But, little remains of the finish on this coin despite the "MS" designation, perhaps removed during conservation and perhaps that's why it received a 4/5 on the surface(?!). Based on a number of analyses, these contained a standard of only ca 4-5% silver so how long these would maintain the finish if actually used.

    But Swampboy's comment is still on point I think. Presentation was important. After a hard day's work, would you rather receive a shiny silver looking coin or a copper one even if the XXI mark indicated that they contained the standard amount of silver?

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  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    True, I forgot to consider the trace silvering that would have once been on that Probus ant.

    Like I was trying to say, we'll never get a good look at original mint bloom on ancient bronze.

    But that coin gives a tantalizing peek at what it might have looked like, and I can't help but wonder how brassy yellowish the two Greek pieces Gil and I posted must've looked when new. Must've been something, coupled with that high relief and full details.

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  • STLNATSSTLNATS Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭
    I can't help but wonder how brassy yellowish the two Greek pieces Gil and I posted must've looked when new. Must've been something, coupled with that high relief and full details.

    +1. There's a truism that people are all the same which I'm not at all sure is true, especially when we try to understand how the folks in the ancient world related to money/coins. A new goldenish brass coin probably made one feel all warm and fuzzy (actually none of my typical sarcasm here) compared to a worn, tarnished AE of the same type especially if you were relying on it to buy a meal or a couple of days' groceries. Fun stuff to think about.

    image
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