Netherlands (Gelderland): "St. John" type gold gulden (florin) of Arnold van Egmond, ca. 1423-1472

lordmarcovan

Netherlands (Gelderland): "St. John" type gold gulden (florin) of Arnold van Egmond, ca. 1423-1472





















Obverse: St. John the Baptist, standing and facing, "S.IOHANNES-BABTISTA" (lion).



Reverse: coats of arms, "+ DVX.ARNOLD'.GEL.Z.IVL.Z.COMIS.Z."



PCGS Genuine ("Filed Rims- XF Details"), cert. #32089335. Ex-Hans Verschoor (Netherlands), from his rondomons.nl website, 10/21/14. Purchased raw.



I'd had my eye on a coin of this type for at least six months before I purchased this one, which had a better strike and a nice flan. The toning was a major selling point for me as well. The subsequent PCGS "Genuine/Details" grade was a disappointment. Their "Filed Rims" notation must mean they saw some traces of clipping on the edge, which is fairly common on precious metal hammered medieval coinage. I personally saw no such traces and will likely submit the coin to NGC for a second opinion, now that I have good images from the PCGS TrueViews. I'm hoping it will receive a "straight grade", but even if it doesn't, I like this coin and love the toning on it.



Miscellaneous links:

PCGS cert verification page (w/TrueView image link)



Wikipedia links:

Arnold, Duke of Guelders

Guelders (historical duchy)

Gelderland (modern province)

John the Baptist







When posted here, this coin was part of my "Eclectic Box of 20" collection.

LochNESS

Well I said it before (on the hammered gold thread) and I'll say it again. Beautiful coin! Love it!!!

lordmarcovan

Thanks, Nessie.

Andres

Congrats , Rob very nice coin with lots of eye appeal,
The 2 lions on the reverse stand for the dutch province of Gelderland and the german province of Gulik
and they are sometimes called the boxing lions
Andres

Zohar

Dennis88

Aaah my home province. The staple of gold coinage from Gelderland prior to the Spanish period.

Very nice piece

Dennis

Swampboy

NiceCurrency

St. John the Octopus

cool coin

PatAR

Now I see what you mean by circam gold. Neat!

LochNESS

<< <i>Now I see what you mean by circam gold. Neat! >>

+1

trozau

Nice!

lordmarcovan

<< <i>St. John the Octopus

cool coin >>

I rather thought he looked like he was shooting out flames, myself.



<< <i>Now I see what you mean by circam gold. Neat! >>



Some forum terminology probably needs translation for our newer members, I guess.

As you may have figured out, "CircCam" (short for "Circulation Cameo", or "Circulated Cameo", if you prefer) is that look created when darker toning on a coin's fields contrasts with lighter colored design elements on the high point of a coin, as a result of circulation. I think it is a very handsome look, and decided it needed a shorthand term. So I coined the CircCam term. It has gained some acceptance on these forums and I have even seen it used a few times in eBay descriptions and titles, though those sellers are probably members here.

I have yet to write the definitive "CircCam" article for The Numismatist. Maybe I'd better do that before somebody steals my thunder, eh?

Here is the most recent CircCam thread, with some nice stuff posted


And here, by way of welcome and for orientation purposes, is the Forum Lingo Dictionary.

WillieBoyd2

Interesting gold coin.

One wonders what the history of this coin has been for the past 500 years.

SmEagle1795

Awesome coin, and with a heckuva lot of character as well. I just took a quick look at some other examples and I prefer yours by a mile. It's also a great match to your 1842 D half eagle.

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Awesome coin, and with a heckuva lot of character as well. I just took a quick look at some other examples and I prefer yours by a mile. It's also a great match to your 1842 D half eagle. >>

I consider this opinion to be high praise indeed. Thank you, sir.

I suppose it's no coincidence that it rather resembles my Dahlonega half-eagle in terms of color and toning. I just love that look on circulated gold. For MS pieces, gimme the bright luster, naturally, but for circs, I like 'em a little "dirty" like this.

marcmoish

agreed!!, and I would probably have it authenticated and graded - curious how that would pan out ..

lordmarcovan

This coin completed its transatlantic journey today and is in hand now. Soon it will cross the continent to be encapsulated by our hosts.

It is a little bit paler gold than the pictures, but not "pale gold" in the sense of being debased, as many goldgulden were. It appears to be of good metal and looks properly gold, not silvery. More light yellowish than orangish.

It also has some decent brightness (don't know if I'd call it "luster", exactly, on a hammered coin- but maybe.). The toning is great and really makes it "pop". As previously mentioned, that was one of the primary factors which sold me on this piece.

The strike seems pretty good. Though it is a bit flat in a few parts of the shield and on some letters, St. John's facial features are clear, unlike many other examples I saw. I think the Dutch seller's VF-equivalent grade was fairly conservative and I see no reason this shouldn't be a solid XF40 if not XF45 at an American TPG. In fact, I daresay I'm hoping for a shot at an AU grade, though it is premature to count those particular chickens before they hatch.

There is a tiny flan crack at about 5:00 but I'd say that is well within the norm and it is otherwise quite a nice flan for a hammered gold coin. I see no trace of waviness there.

All told, I am very pleased with this purchase and would rank it as one of my "better" coins.

I'll post another update after it has had its turn at PCGS.

nicholasz219

I steal many coins for my own collecting lists, you included LM, so I feel it is inappropriate for me to also steal the "YOU SUCK" designation. So I shall not to be an anti-pope or anti-LM of sorts and issue my own.

But, still, really, you suck and I want you to know that.

"I am terribly envious of your coin and your ability to find and afford nice pieces" doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?

Back to the drawing board.

Nap

Nice gold coin!

lordmarcovan

Finally updated with the post-PCGS grade and images.

This coin will likely be cracked out and tried at NGC later, however, in hopes of a straight grade. I won't mind it being entombed in their ghastly white prongs so much, since I now have a good picture of it, sans plastic.

I don't want any "details" graded slabs in my set, but the fact remains that I really love this coin and its toning, so while I don't play the crack-and-resubmit game much, this one's worth another round or two. I don't see any immediately apparent traces of clipping (i.e. "Filed Rims"), and if there is, it's not that uncommon on medieval hammered gold, and I think this piece falls well into the "acceptable" range. So we'll see.

Andres

Filed rims could be done at the mint to adjust the flan or even on the already hammered coin , weight should be 2,66 grams when issued.
after the coin leaves the mint its also possible the coin was filed ( or clipped) for a small profit.

zompels

Nice piece , I like it .

SYRACUSIAN

<< <i>Finally updated with the post-PCGS grade and images.

This coin will likely be cracked out and tried at NGC later, however, in hopes of a straight grade. I won't mind it being entombed in their ghastly white prongs so much, since I now have a good picture of it, sans plastic.

I don't want any "details" graded slabs in my set, but the fact remains that I really love this coin and its toning, so while I don't play the crack-and-resubmit game much, this one's worth another round or two. I don't see any immediately apparent traces of clipping (i.e. "Filed Rims"), and if there is, it's not that uncommon on medieval hammered gold, and I think this piece falls well into the "acceptable" range. So we'll see. >>




Rob, the coin looks infinitely better than its grade. Since you intend to send it to NGC to get a straight grade, it's always a good idea to add a piece of info, regarding the clipped planchets in this case, or whatever extra info you think is necessary in order to get the grade you're after.
You can type a couple of paragraphs yourself, if you have nothing else. I've seen people using this same logic, albeit with as many "official" documents that they could find, and when they resubmitted it (again to PCGS, demanding a regrade) along with the info, they all got the result that they were expecting the first time around. The last example that comes to mind is an extremely rare silver Ionian 1862 30 lepta, medal alignment, that is in fact a proof strike, unlisted in Krause, or any other catalogue. Any Ionian (1834-1862) silver 30 lepta, as well as the copper one lepta with medal alignment are by definition proofs (except the 1853 one lepton ), RRR proofs, which in the case of the 1862 it's the second in existence and the only one graded. As a proof 64 it is worth $2500, whereas as an MS64 it is worth $300-$380 according to some no reserve auctions, one of which ended on eBay yesterday.

Even the $375-380 is a high price compared to the ones sold in Athens, graded by PCGS. Athenians have the upper hand compared to the residents of other parts of Greece, hence the winners of such auctions are more often than not, residents of a small town or village in the middle of nowhere. With the presence of at least three busy Greek coin forums now, I know first hand how many of these fellow collectors, finally made their appearance and existence known, and they can have an online discussion on a subject that for years was something that they couldn't share with anybody else in their small communities.

So my advise is to submit it with some additional info, examples, whatever you think is appropriate. It will be worth it.

nicholasz219

Dimitri,

Good info to know.

lordmarcovan

Dimitri- thanks.

But I'm afraid I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to present my case, especially as it's founded on rather limited experience. I would imagine their graders see more coins (even more hammered gold coins) in a week than I do in a couple of years.

Since the technical (numerical) grade doesn't matter that much to me (and is unlikely to dip too much below the XF details PCGS gave), I'll probably just crack it out and try NGC.

Then, if it gets a details-grade there too, I'll either try to build a case for reconsideration at one of the services or I'll just accept the results.

It's a nice enough coin regardless of the plastic and label. Even raw, the way I bought it.