Ar vs Ag ... seriously ...

LochNESS

Before you dismiss this as a dumb question ... I've seen MANY numismatic sources using "AR" to indicate silver. I actually never noticed until recently, while browsing an Ancients dealer's website - so perhaps this is a new fad?

My question is why? The correct abbreviation for silver (aka Argentum) is "Ag," yet so many auction sites and dealers are doing this it caused me to question my education! to the point where I actually GOOGLED it thinking I was crazy!

So what is the deal?

Two minor details:
(1) I posted this on the US forum as well, to see if their opinions would vary; sorry if this double strike offends
(2) the abbreviation "Ar" means Argon, which is a gas, so maybe you shouldn't use it for coins

STLNATS

Traditional, esp I think for ancients: AR is for latin argentum, AE for Aes, etc. BTW, I've always seen it in caps only: AR, AE, AV.

LochNESS

And yet, it is not always seen in caps. Here is a 1990 edition of Krause. Not the most authoritative, but definitely the most widespread reference:

lordmarcovan

Perhaps one reason "AR" is used in numismatic contexts instead of "AG" is to avoid confusion with the AG ( About Good) grade?

Sounded good to me, theoretically, except I think the coin dealer practice of using the "AR" abbreviation may antedate the modern grading nomenclature which includes AG. And the numismatic "AR" abbreviation is used in countries where the AG grade doesn't exist.

So who knows. It's tradition. Like the 70-point Sheldon scale, it doesn't always make perfect sense.

CIVITAS

<< <i>Traditional, esp I think for ancients: AR is for latin argentum, AE for Aes, etc. BTW, I've always seen it in caps only: AR, AE, AV. >>



Yes, exactly. The AV is from the Latin word for gold, "aurum", which of course would have been spelled "avrvm" in old Latin.

LochNESS

Yes, I have noticed it primarily on websites for ancients. I suppose my main curiosity is the "why" ... we may never know!

Sapyx

The symbols "Au" for gold and "Ag" for silver are chemical symbols. Their use dates from the rising of chemistry out of alchemy, and replaced the pictographic symbols for chemicals as used by the alchemists because the pictographs were harder to put into print. Which symbol stands for which element is determined by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) so that the same symbols are now used by chemists and other scientists worldwide, irrespective of which language is being used.

The symbols "AV" for gold and "AR" for silver (note that both letters are always supposed to be capitalized, whereas with chemical symbols only the first letter is capitalized) are the symbols used by historians and archaeologists to describe the composition of objects. Historically, the symbols were ligatures, but this form of the usage has largely died out as ligatures for AR and AV are not even in extended Unicode, as far as I can tell. These symbols are not "new", as you seem to think; they have been used by numismatists since the dawn of the hobby, long before "America" ever existed as a country. You can find them used in all the old numismatic reference works. Here's an example from Google Books, from a coin catalogue published in 1834; the line-drawings of coins are labelled AE, AR or AV (all ligatured).

In other words, "AR" is not the new, upstart symbol for silver; "Ag" is. We coin collectors thought of "AR" first. It's not our fault the scientists went and changed the symbol on us.

STLNATS

And yet, it is not always seen in caps. Here is a 1990 edition of Krause. Not the most authoritative, but definitely the most widespread reference:

Well, that is Krause after all so take it for what it's worth.

Excellent detailed explanation of the why, Sapyx.

Interesting how nomenclature seems to change over time. When I first started doing banknotes, it was face and back and use of obverse and reverse was the mark of (most charitably) a newby. With more shiny disk folks getting into paper, obverse and reverse is really taking hold altho I still find the use somewhat jarring. Stuff changes.

LochNESS

The explanation is very much appreciated. I'm well aware the symbols / ligatures are very old. But I hadn't noticed them until recently, while browsing ancients. That is why I wondered if this was old tradition or a new behavior (not new symbols).

As times change and language evolves - and alchemy becomes science - so do our symbols change. Apparently not for ancients.

I don't know why "America" came into the discussion but since you brought it up, the American flag has changed many times. But you don't see anyone hanging the first incarnation, do you? Now somebody post a photo of a colonial flag waving and prove me wrong

Ancientgalleonllc

The unscientific symbolic Latin abbreviations of AR for Silver, AE (AES) = Bronze or Copper, AV= Gold, EL= Electrum, BI= Billon, will likely never switch to the periodic table symbols. Switching would improperly describe many coins from a scientific point of View. The symbolic abbreviations are used to describe/group ancient coins by their intended primary component. Some ancient coins contain less than 50% of their primary element and using a periodic element such as AG instead of AR would not necessarily be accurate. However, The periodic tables are used scientifically in ancient numismatics when describing a coins specific metal content/analysis.

Ancientgalleonllc

The unscientific symbolic Latin abbreviations of AR for Silver, AE (AES) = Bronze or Copper, AV= Gold, EL= Electrum, BI= Billon, will likely never switch to the periodic table symbols. Switching would improperly describe many coins from a scientific point of View. The symbolic abbreviations are used to describe/group ancient coins by their intended primary component. Some ancient coins contain less than 50% of their primary element and using a periodic element such as AG instead of AR would not necessarily be accurate. However, The periodic tables are used scientifically in ancient numismatics when describing a coins specific metal content/analysis.

LochNESS

THANK YOU, thank you AncientgalleonLLC for that most excellent comment. That is a very logical argument to which I am swayed 100%. Definitely worth posting twice

And hey ...

Ancientgalleonllc

Your welcome... The double post was an accident but glad it appeared to have a greater impact being posted twice .

Swampboy

<< <i>Your welcome... The double post was an accident but glad it appeared to have a greater impact being posted twice . >>

LochNESS

BTW, in my database, I have always used the fineness alongside "Ag" or "Au" (or other precious metals), and when an alloy was dominant I define all the dominant ingredients (ex: Cu-Ni or Cu-Ni-Sn). So I think I am OK with my method and shall continue doing so. Even if the fineness is "0.300 Ag" or an average approximation. But I do think this argument is the best reasoning I've seen for why ancients have a separate nomenclature.