'71 Munson dilemma

dberk12

I was searching for a mint '71 Munson which is obviously scarce as the PSA 9 is a pop 4. I settled and purchased a BVG 9.5 which is a pop 2 several months ago. It is my only BVG card and my OCD is getting the best of me recently. It bothers me to see it in that holder. Should I try to cross the card over? Do I roll the dice and crack it out of the case and submit it raw? Or should I stop being a card snob and leave it in the BVG holder? Just curious to see what you guys would do.

DrFong

Sounds sheet cut to me.

CDsNuts

It's almost definitely sheet-cut so you should leave it be. A PSA 9 would go for north of $10k, so if somebody could've gotten it in that slab they would have.

Lee

mattyc_collection

White it is certainly possible it is sheet cut, not every BVG card is sheet cut. And there are certainly sheet cut cards in PSA holders. The truth of the matter is it is nearly impossible to tell, if at all. I've had graders themselves tell me this.

Additionally, I know many collectors who prefer to have a card in a higher grade holder, be it BVG or SGC, than a lower grade in PSA. This because while Post War PSA cards will usually sell for more in the SAME grade PSA holder, often an SGC or BVG card in a HIGHER grade will sell for the same or more-- plus these collectors like seeing the grade they feel the card deserves. So the card may only cross to a PSA 8.5 due to its merits or perhaps politics, and the owner may have preferred it in the BVG 9.5 in that case.

Then there are guys who just like other companies' holders; we have seen major cards cross to the same grade, or get knocked down just a half or full grade when crossing. We have even seen cards cross and later bump.

So it's really about if the card in question is legit and fantastic, and if it is and you prefer a certain slab for whatever reason, no reason not to go for it. It's all about personal taste and preference.

DrFong

<< <i>White it is certainly possible it is sheet cut, not every BVG card is sheet cut. And there are certainly sheet cut cards in PSA holders. The truth of the matter is it is nearly impossible to tell, if at all. I've had graders themselves tell me this.

Additionally, I know many collectors who prefer to have a card in a higher grade holder, be it BVG or SGC, than a lower grade in PSA. This because while Post War PSA cards will usually sell for more in the SAME grade PSA holder, often an SGC or BVG card in a HIGHER grade will sell for the same or more-- plus these collectors like seeing the grade they feel the card deserves. So the card may only cross to a PSA 8.5 due to its merits or perhaps politics, and the owner may have preferred it in the BVG 9.5 in that case.

Then there are guys who just like other companies' holders; we have seen major cards cross to the same grade, or get knocked down just a half or full grade when crossing. We have even seen cards cross and later bump.

So it's really about if the card in question is legit and fantastic, and if it is and you prefer a certain slab for whatever reason, no reason not to go for it. It's all about personal taste and preference. >>



That's all well and good, but if he ever goes to resell it, most (if not all) serious buyers will presume it is sheet cut. Whether they are correct or not won't matter.

mattyc_collection

He did not mention any imminent resale in his post. It seemed this was a keeper card in a personal collection. Also, depending on what the card would cross to, it may sell for more in the BVG holder. For example, if it is deemed a factory cut but has a surface dimple or bubble or some other flaw, it might only cross to a PSA 8.5. It would then sell for more in the BVG 9.5 holder.

So if reselling is the issue, I would only cross it to a min grade of 9, which even if it merits the grade, might not happen due to sheer politics. If reselling is not the issue and one just prefers uniformity of slabs or a certain slab's aesthetic, one can cross to any grade. Once it's in the PSA holder, reviews are always possible. Very hard to help without seeing the card in hand. The best results may come from subbing it raw, if the card looks legit and great, but that does create a risk that the card might remain raw. If it at least crosses initially, even to an 8 or 8.5, subsequent crack/resubs are a better bet.

DrFong

Imminent, no. But reselling does happen. Take you for instance.

mattyc_collection

Sure, it does happen. But in this case the OP was not asking about resale. And if that is a major consideration, the most risk averse course of action would be to...

1. Attempt straight cross with min grade of 9.
2. If not, attempt straight cross with min grade of 8.5 and then review.
3. If numerical grade from PSA is given on cross, but reviews don't pan out, crack resub knowing it got into a holder before, and can do so again.
4. If card will not cross at all due to being deemed sheet cut, or will only cross very low due to a micro wrinkle or other hard-to-see surface issue, keep in holder. The latter issue can be detected from the outset, saving time and fees. To know if the former is the case would cost only one initial fee.
5. If cross is rejected due to sheet cut determination, and the collector still wants uniformity of slab in his collection, can always gamble by cracking and subbing raw. This runs the greatest risk obviously.

DrFong

I did not state he asked about resale. I'm sure there were things once locked "forever" in your highly peeped collection that are now peeped via a new owner. The bottom line is that it happens whether we include it in our OP or not.

mattyc_collection

Sure, it does happen, and I hope I've helped the OP by discussing some of his options.

Dpeck100

BVG 9.5



PSA 8


Interesting to see that a Gem Mint example in a BVG slab only sold for $1,175 more then a PSA 8.

Littletweed

Pictures are always helpful. I'm not sure which is yours, but I would not crack either one out.

otwcards

We don't own our cards, we're just holding them for the next owner...

The only consideration the OP should have with regard to crossing the Munson is to review it in the BVG holder with PSA and SGC. There is absolutely NOTHING positive that will occur if the card is cracked out of the BVG holder... NOTHING!!!

MiniDuff

Best advice I see here is attempt to cross to SGC first.

Breaking anything 80s and earlier out of BVG is a recipe for heartbreak.

MULLINS5

I agree that this card shouldn't be cracked out of the BVG holder, but I once cracked a 1978 Mike Bossy BVG 8 card, submitted it to PSA and received a 9.

maysmantle

I've had luck breaking out of bvg and subbing to psa in the past. Most notable was a bvg 9 75 Brett that I attempted to crossover and came back min grade. I then cracked it and re subbed. Landed in a psa 9 slab. I'd like to think politics aren't involved, but who knows. I've had other bvg crackouts come back .5-1 full grade lower in psa slabs. Never had one come back higher.

If you can afford the risk, I'd go for it. Just set your expectations that it could be an 8.5 when it comes back.

otwcards

<< <i>Just set your expectations that it could be an 8.5 when it comes back. >>



An 8.5 would be a WIN! My fear, and general expectation would be EOT.

jackstraw

They sure do look pretty regardless of being recently cut or cut in 1971!

59Horsehide

OK, what does "sheet cut" mean and why does it matter/make a difference versus any other kind of cut if the card is an original? Thanks.

Jim-59Horsehide

MULLINS5

<< <i>OK, what does "sheet cut" mean and why does it matter/make a difference versus any other kind of cut if the card is an original? Thanks.

Jim-59Horsehide >>



"Sheet-cut" means hand-cut (or laser cut). Here's PSA's stance on sheet cut cards:

The Grading of Hand-Cut Cards

PSA will grade virtually any card that has been hand-cut off of a panel, box, etc. (Post Cereal, Hostess, Bazooka, Strip cards, etc.) keeping the following information in mind. This service does not include traditional sheet-cut cards. PSA will not grade cards cut from sheets that can be obtained in a normal fashion. For example, PSA will not grade a 1979 O-Pee-Chee Wayne Gretzky card cut from a sheet because that card was issued in non-sheet form. On the other hand, PSA will grade a 1959 Bazooka or 1961 Post Cereal Mickey Mantle because those cards could only be obtained in one fashion - removed by hand from a box or panel.

Purists generally avoid sheet cut cards as they did not come from a pack.

Many modern collectors are generally OK with sheet cut cards.

otwcards

<< <i>Many modern collectors are generally OK with sheet cut cards. >>



Really? In what world would there be "many?" Just because Beckett knowingly grades them doesn't mean that "many modern collectors" are alright with sheet cut cards. In fact, I would say that a poll would find that a very, very small minority, at best, would consider such cards alright in a holder without being noted as "sheet cut."

dberk12

Thanks for the excellent thoughts and feedback. This was my first big purchase when I got back into collecting earlier this year. At the time I was learning about the hobby again and did not have the knowledge I do now, mostly because of all of the great collectors on this message board. I was unaware of the bad reputation that BVG has with vintage cards and figured I would never see one of the 4 PSA 9 cards for sale so I pulled the trigger. The one I own is the probstein scan with the serial number ending with 649.

I am going to submit it to SGC and see what happens. I will post a scan when I get it back.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this topic.

mattyc_collection

Sheet-cut means the card was not cut at the factory at the time of printing and distributed in the traditional methods in that year, i.e., packs, vending, factory sets. Rather, a legitimate uncut sheet was at some later point cut into cards.

Some collectors feel all cards originated from a sheet at some point, and so it matters not when or how the card was cut.

Some feel that a card should have been made into a discrete card from the sheet at the factory in its year of issue, and anything else is something intrinsically less or different.

Other collectors feel a card that is sheet cut has an unfair condition advantage, in that it can be cut for premium centering, and its edges and corners are newer than its factory cut brethren.

Some will counter that a card just opened from a sealed pack today has had an equally advantaged journey through time to the grading process, having not been handled ever.

So there are different philosophies one can take on the subject of sheet-cut cards. Ultimately, it comes down to the preference of the individual collector.

MULLINS5

<< <i>

<< <i>Many modern collectors are generally OK with sheet cut cards. >>



Really? In what world would there be "many?" Just because Beckett knowingly grades them doesn't mean that "many modern collectors" are alright with sheet cut cards. In fact, I would say that a poll would find that a very, very small minority, at best, would consider such cards alright in a holder without being noted as "sheet cut." >>



Many people submit and buy Beckett's cards and those "Pristine 10" cards bring in many bidders and a lot of money. It's known that Beckett grades sheet cut cards, so anybody buying Becket would assume that there's a good chance the card is sheet cut = they're OK with it. If they weren't OK with a sheet cut card, they'd generally avoid Becket would they not?

dberk12

So there are different philosophies one can take on the subject of sheet-cut cards. Ultimately, it comes down to the preference of the individual collector. >>



Exactly. Completely agree.

I have no interest in reselling this card. I found out the hard way why BVG has a bad reputation when I purchased a BVG 9 '68 Ryan and it turned out to be trimmed. You live and learn. I will never buy another BVG card and I would like to get my Munson out of the BVG holder.

mattyc_collection

<< <i>Many people submit and buy Beckett's cards and those "Pristine 10" cards bring in many bidders and a lot of money. It's known that Beckett grades sheet cut cards, so anybody buying Becket would assume that there's a good chance the card is sheet cut = they're OK with it. If they weren't OK with a sheet cut card, they'd generally avoid Becket would they not? >>



That is true. I know guys who will pay top dollar for BGS 10's and they are fine with sheet-cut cards. They want the most pristine version of the card as can be obtained. I know other guys who abhor the notion that a card was cut years or decades after the sheet was printed. Two schools of thought and whatever makes one happy.

DrFong

I'm sure that many people buy cards with the intention to keep them forever but, more often than not, that is not the case. Anyone who buys a card, without even so much as a thought on what they will/may get out of that card if/when the time comes, is a fool.

Bolded so as not to be missed.

Stone193

<< <i>We don't own our cards, we're just holding them for the next owner...

The only consideration the OP should have with regard to crossing the Munson is to review it in the BVG holder with PSA and SGC. There is absolutely NOTHING positive that will occur if the card is cracked out of the BVG holder... NOTHING!!! >>

+1

Stone193

<< <i>I'm sure that many people buy cards with the intention to keep them forever but, more often than not, that is not the case. Anyone who buys a card, without even so much as a thought on what they will/may get out of that card if/when the time comes, is a fool.

Bolded so as not to be missed. >>

Dr F

"Fool" is a bit harsh IMO.

Let me approach this from another perspective.

If someone purchases a card for that kind of money, IMO it's key that one can afford it as entertainment in terms of a hobby. That'll take the stress off and let one sleep at night.

olb31

<< <i>Best advice I see here is attempt to cross to SGC first.

Breaking anything 80s and earlier out of BVG is a recipe for heartbreak. >>



bvg 9 1978 opc rose to psa 10

bvg 9 1979 dorsett psa 10

bvg 6.5 1964 rose to psa 7

bvg 8.5 1978 murray to psa 9

bvg 8.5 1980 henderson to psa 9

that's just me

mattyc_collection

Well done, OLB31!

Those awesome results just go to show that end of the day, it's all about the collector's eye and the card inside the holder-- whatever holder

DrFong

So olb31, how many BVG 9.5 black bordered 1971 cards have you crossed successfully? <insert cricket chirping noise here>

The bottom line is every 1971 Munson in a BVG 9.5 holder has been sheet cut. 100% Book it.

Once again bolded so as not to be missed.