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Clayton Kershaw

DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
No doubt he has been the premier pitcher in all of baseball during the regular season the past four seasons.

He may win his 3rd CY YOUNG award in the past 4 years.
He had the lowest ERA in the NL in EACH of the past 4 seasons.
He had the lowest WHIP in the NL in EACH of the past 4 seasons.
He had been 1st or 2nd in Batting Average Against in each of the past 4 seasons.

Without him the Dodgers don't finish the regular season where they did. That's why they paid him $215,000,000.00 to pitch for 7 years.

HOWEVER, if he keeps performing poorly in the Post Season, do people start discounting him as a premier pitcher?

Post Season Career Statistics
Won 1 Lost 5
ERA 5.00+
WHIP 1.27
Gave up 6 HRs in 51 innings.

Not looking for an argument from Dodger fans, just looking for peoples' opinions.

Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.
STAY HEALTHY!

Doug

Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.

Comments

  • VitoCo1972VitoCo1972 Posts: 6,130 ✭✭✭
    In general, I'll take full season sample sizes as opposed to 7-10 days samples when deciding if a guy is great or not. But the playoff struggles are pretty wild. Then again, Roger Clemens was 1-2 w/ a 4.00 ERA in his first 9 postseason starts. Was much closer to his regular season averages for for the rest of his career in the playoffs. Happens sometimes.
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  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    3 ER 4 H 9 Ks and 2 BB on 6 IP on short rest isn't too shabby. Not legendary but not ready to label him a bust in postseason yet. Need a larger sample size to make that determination to be fair. Look at what Bonds did in World Series when he hit 4 HRs, hit well over. 400 and won MVP. Prior to that, he was labeled a postseason bust, too.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    I agree with both of you that it is too small of a sample, that is why I asked "if he keeps performing poorly in the Post Season".
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    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,741 ✭✭✭✭✭
    True, Doug, but many already believe he is a postseason bust.


    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes it is dissappointing when your stellar regular season performer comes up empty in the playoffs,however I will take a player(s) who can at least give my team a good/great chance to at least get to the playoffs. So I would cut the player(s) some slack and be thankful for that much.
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  • mattyc_collectionmattyc_collection Posts: 2,130 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agreed. Short series baseball is its own animal. Anything can happen. Look how many historic post season heroics wind up being performed by guys who were not epic studs over the 162 long haul.

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  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭


    << <i>Agreed. Short series baseball is its own animal. Anything can happen. Look how many historic post season heroics wind up being performed by guys who were not epic studs over the 162 long haul. >>


    Matty ... are you saying Bucky Dent was not an EPIC STUD over the long haul? LOL
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    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • JHS5120JHS5120 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭
    If Kershaw plays 15 more years at the same regular season level (stellar) and the same postseason level (crumby) for the duration of those 15 years he will be remembered as one of the greatest pitchers to ever play baseball.
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  • dennis07dennis07 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭
    Name the pitcher who put up these post season stats-- I believe he is thought of as premier.

    W L ERA IP H ER WHIP
    11 14 3.27 198 195 72 1.24
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  • downtowndowntown Posts: 671 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Name the pitcher who put up these post season stats-- I believe he is thought of as premier.

    W L ERA IP H ER WHIP
    11 14 3.27 198 195 72 1.24 >>




    Maddux
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    Doug
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    Keep the opinions coming guys ... very interesting to read.
    STAY HEALTHY!

    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • PMKAYPMKAY Posts: 1,372 ✭✭
    Kershaw and Peyton Manning both suck.

    Or maybe it's over analysis of small sample sizes on individuals who play team sports that sucks.
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭
    My opinion?

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  • bigdogpartybigdogparty Posts: 190 ✭✭
    Even as a Cardinal fan, I'll be the first to admit he is crazy good and his poor postseason performance will not overshadow his regular seasons. The Cardinals have fallen victim to Kryptonite in the form of Bud Norris and the Cards are Kershaws Green Rock. Most of Kershaws poor post season performance is at the hands of the Cardinals. Too small of a sample size but his overall body of work speaks for itself
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    He's the best pitcher in the game right now. I'm sure he'll get another chance at the postseason but as it stands right now he has three starts where he's given up 7+ runs. He's gonna need a few shutouts to get those numbers down. I keep hearing him mentioned with Koufax. When he throws 300+ innings and pitches two shutouts in a World Series one on two days rest on an arthritic elbow I may agree.
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭
    Dennis ... IMO 11-14 with a 3.27 ERA is a heck of a lot better than 1-5 with an ERA of 5.00+. Agreed, Kershaw has pitched in a lot less games. But if he continues in this fashion, does 3-15 with a 5.00+ ERA seem comparable to Maddux' stats?
    STAY HEALTHY!

    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • TheMick6TheMick6 Posts: 582
    Put it this way he's gonna have to do an awful lot to get on the short list of guys I want on the hill in a game seven. That's Koufax, Gibson and an oldie but goodie Mathewson.
  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,741 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Dennis ... IMO 11-14 with a 3.27 ERA is a heck of a lot better than 1-5 with an ERA of 5.00+. Agreed, Kershaw has pitched in a lot less games. But if he continues in this fashion, does 3-15 with a 5.00+ ERA seem comparable to Maddux' stats? >>



    I seriously doubt he's going to wind up 3-15 with an ERA of 5 if given that number of opportunities. That's just not going to happen.

    Jack Morris is considered one of the all time greatest "clutch" postseason pitchers primarily because of his performance in Game 7 of the '91 WS. However, his career postseason ERA is 3.80, just one tick below his career regular season ERA of 3.90. Given enough opportunities, a player will almost always revert to his mean.


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  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This conversation brings to mind a thought I've had for awhile. If a pitcher has an average to below average career, say 125-150 wins in the regular season, but is fortunate to go to 3 World Series and win all 3 with a 7-0 W/L pitching record, does he make the HOF? Put another way does an exceptional post season make up for an average/below average regular season career? How would/should the HOF selection be weighted?
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  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Agreed. Short series baseball is its own animal. Anything can happen. Look how many historic post season heroics wind up being performed by guys who were not epic studs over the 162 long haul. >>


    Matty ... are you saying Bucky Dent was not an EPIC STUD over the long haul? LOL >>



    Or Mark Lemke??
  • SlabbedSlabbed Posts: 306
    It,s terrible the Dodger's should panick and trade Kershaw to the Mets for Jonathan Nieise and or Daniel Murphy and could you just dream Mets fan's of Harvey and Kershaw in the same rotation Sandy please make some phone call
    s to try to improve your club while the Dodger's and their fans are still discontent over Kershaw not winning a big game.
  • ashabbyashabby Posts: 471 ✭
    He will keep treading down until he can level off his post season play. Kind of like Peyton manning.
  • flatfoot816flatfoot816 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭
    who's dissing me???

    imageimage

    pulled this beauty in 2006 and had it graded last month...great card!
  • mtcardsmtcards Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭


    << <i>He will keep treading down until he can level off his post season play. Kind of like Peyton manning. >>




    Manning has the advantage of longevity records to hang his hat on. Kershaw only has the present and has ways to go before any career records to cement his legacy are in place
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  • sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭
    You know you are great when your team is eliminated from the playoffs and you are still what everyone is talking about...
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  • kmnortonkmnorton Posts: 1,050 ✭✭✭
    SCT, I'm fine talking about who is still in the playoffs representing the NL West. How about you, Geordie?
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  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    perhaps they can ask Clayton to grab a bat more often and join the lineup. he hits better than most of his teammates.
  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭


    << <i>SCT, I'm fine talking about who is still in the playoffs representing the NL West. How about you, Geordie? >>

    Kurt, you will be receiving a text from me expressing all of my colorful and descriptive thoughts about the upcoming NLCS. image

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  • SidePocketSidePocket Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭
    If he had a bullpen behind him like that of the Royals or Cardinals the Dodgers would be in the NLCS now. And if he didn't have Mattingly as manager. His handing of game 1 was pitiful.

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  • TNP777TNP777 Posts: 5,710 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If he had a bullpen behind him like that of the Royals or Cardinals the Dodgers would be in the NLCS now. And if he didn't have Mattingly as manager. His handing of game 1 was pitiful. >>

    This. 100% this.

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  • FirstBeardFirstBeard Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    The postseason and high pressure situations are what separate guys like Montana, Jordan, and Jeter from the rest. There are lots of guys with the raw talent and regular season numbers, but the killer instinct and "ice in the veins" is what separates the rest of the pack from the elite heroes.

    Not sure what the deal is with Kershaw. Trout also suffered through his second straight bad post season.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    Trout would only have had a bad postseason in 2013 if he had the stomach flu and was confined to the couch. his team was not playing baseball by then.
  • mattinglymint23mattinglymint23 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭


    << <i>Put it this way he's gonna have to do an awful lot to get on the short list of guys I want on the hill in a game seven. That's Koufax, Gibson and an oldie but goodie Mathewson. >>



    Don't forget El Duque
  • mattinglymint23mattinglymint23 Posts: 1,261 ✭✭


    << <i>This conversation brings to mind a thought I've had for awhile. If a pitcher has an average to below average career, say 125-150 wins in the regular season, but is fortunate to go to 3 World Series and win all 3 with a 7-0 W/L pitching record, does he make the HOF? Put another way does an exceptional post season make up for an average/below average regular season career? How would/should the HOF selection be weighted? >>



    I would say post season above average alone is not sufficient for HOF status.
    Strong and long regular season performance and poor playoffs still merits HOF

    Obviously having both is ideal and makes a pitcher premiere.
  • markj111markj111 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭
    You guys are overlooking something. Kershaw was terrific in both starts. In the first one he had 10 Ks and no walks. In the 2nd one he was on three days rest and was still in the game only because the Dodgers have no middle relievers worth anything.
  • DboneesqDboneesq Posts: 18,219 ✭✭


    << <i>You guys are overlooking something. Kershaw was terrific in both starts. In the first one he had 10 Ks and no walks. In the 2nd one he was on three days rest and was still in the game only because the Dodgers have no middle relievers worth anything. >>



    HUH? 0-2 with a 7.82 ERA?????
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    Doug

    Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
  • itzagoneritzagoner Posts: 8,753 ✭✭
    as much as anything, this was a reaction to a disturbing fact:

    Major League Baseball has become a game which is dependent on structure, which is something the Dodgers sorely lacked. in today's game, there is a 7th inning guy, an 8th inning guy, a closer, a backup closer.......or, as the drones on TV have coined it, a "bridge". L.A. couldn't even turn to a 4th or 5th starter to help fill that gap.

    Kershaw went into both starts KNOWING he had no bridge. his mission was to somehow get to Kenley Jansen in the least demanding way possible. that meant getting through at least 8 innings in his starts. as has since been proven, he was no better than a 6 inning pitcher for the playoffs, because, regardless of what any of these stats said - fewer starts, fewer pitches this season, whatever - he was gassed and needed to know that there was a dependable 7th and 8th inning guy to get through the 3rd rotation of the Cards lineup. he practically owned them for the first 6 innings twice and then blew up.

    he psyche must have been exhausted.
  • FirstBeardFirstBeard Posts: 472 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Trout would only have had a bad postseason in 2013 if he had the stomach flu and was confined to the couch. his team was not playing baseball by then. >>



    I think he may have stubbed his toe too. I'm an idiot.
  • ashabbyashabby Posts: 471 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>He will keep treading down until he can level off his post season play. Kind of like Peyton manning. >>




    Manning has the advantage of longevity records to hang his hat on. Kershaw only has the present and has ways to go before any career records to cement his legacy are in place >>



    I agree. I was trying to say keep having great years and poor post season then like manning.
  • MikeyPMikeyP Posts: 990 ✭✭✭
    Clayton Kershaw threw one bad pitch last night. Don Mattingly should have pulled him before he had the chance to throw it.
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