Options
Need opinion - PSA/DNA and Ebay seller refusing to refund
SpinFadeSplash23
Posts: 909 ✭✭✭
I purchased a Chuck Hyatt First Day Issue off Ebay from a reputable dealer for $125. Trying to compile a complete PSA/DNA Basketball HOF Autograph Set. I sent item to PSA/DNA and it came back on unable to authenticate. Messaged seller requesting to process a refund. Here is his reply and my answer below. Am I out of line?
RESPONSE: Normally our policy does not extend to a TPA's "unable to authenticate," as that is not an opinion one way or the other. It just most likely means they do not possess exemplars of the autograph which is not a problem on our end. However, if you can provide documentation (i.e. a letter from PSA) I would take the piece back and issue a credit. Or you may want to try submitting to a company like JSA. I'm sorry this happened to you, but the piece is absolutely authentic. For years, the Naismith Basketball HOF sold these signed First Day Covers in their gift shop. There was such low demand that collectors were buying them and selling them at card shows in the early 90's for a couple of bucks a piece. Unfortunately, PSA's database on Basketball HOF autographs is a bit sparse.
REPLY: Sorry, I am not satisfied with any of those options. I don't feel comfortable getting a credit if this item was not deemed authentic. And the other options require more of my time and money invested, which does not appeal to me. I'll take it up with my credit card company and see how it goes. Thanks for your time.
Thanks, Joe
RESPONSE: Normally our policy does not extend to a TPA's "unable to authenticate," as that is not an opinion one way or the other. It just most likely means they do not possess exemplars of the autograph which is not a problem on our end. However, if you can provide documentation (i.e. a letter from PSA) I would take the piece back and issue a credit. Or you may want to try submitting to a company like JSA. I'm sorry this happened to you, but the piece is absolutely authentic. For years, the Naismith Basketball HOF sold these signed First Day Covers in their gift shop. There was such low demand that collectors were buying them and selling them at card shows in the early 90's for a couple of bucks a piece. Unfortunately, PSA's database on Basketball HOF autographs is a bit sparse.
REPLY: Sorry, I am not satisfied with any of those options. I don't feel comfortable getting a credit if this item was not deemed authentic. And the other options require more of my time and money invested, which does not appeal to me. I'll take it up with my credit card company and see how it goes. Thanks for your time.
Thanks, Joe
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
0
Comments
<< <i>Could "issue a credit" = refund? >>
That's how I read it.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
<< <i>Maybe I misread, but I took it as credit to buy something else he is selling. That is how I have always view the term, credit = store credit. But I may be wrong. >>
I think you may be correct~why use "credit" instead of "refund"? However, I would have clarified that before shutting him down.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Buyers who pickup anything raw (cards, packs, autos, et cetera) are assuming a risk that the item may not be authentic, or may have been opened or trimmed, altered, etc etc. If the item has already passed a TGC's standards then there's an attached premium to the item...or, at least, there should be.
There are also steps a potential buyer can take, such as reaching out to this community of experts for an opinion. I think, sometimes, people are afraid to reach out to a public community because they're afraid someone may purchase the item before them.
Another step is "PSA Quick Opinion"
Again, no disrespect to the OP, but this seems to be a trend that's taking place too much lately.
Credit=refund
Seller is being more than professional and the buyer is being a hardass for no apparent reason.
Lee
<< <i>This is hilarious. The seller is agreeing to what the buyer wants. He basically said: normally I wouldn't refund, but in this case I'll make an exception if you show me proof that PSA rejected it.
Credit=refund
Seller is being more than professional and the buyer is being a hardass for no apparent reason. >>
This is my take too.
<< <i>Maybe I misread, but I took it as credit to buy something else he is selling. That is how I have always view the term, credit = store credit. But I may be wrong. >>
+1
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
<< <i>This is hilarious. The seller is agreeing to what the buyer wants. He basically said: normally I wouldn't refund, but in this case I'll make an exception if you show me proof that PSA rejected it.
Credit=refund
Seller is being more than professional and the buyer is being a hardass for no apparent reason.
Lee >>
Lee FTW. This is absurd.
1. The seller was being generous in offering to take back the item.
2. I take "credit" to mean "store credit", not a refund. But as another person pointed out, it would have been best to clarify that up front.
Even if it just meant store credit, I'd likely take them up on that offer and chalk this up to a lesson learned about buying autos not already authenticated by your TPA of choice.
<< <i>My take:
1. The seller was being generous in offering to take back the item.
2. I take "credit" to mean "store credit", not a refund. But as another person pointed out, it would have been best to clarify that up front.
Even if it just meant store credit, I'd likely take them up on that offer and chalk this up to a lesson learned about buying autos not already authenticated by your TPA of choice. >>
There you go again, being all reasonable and stuff.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
<< <i>There you go again, being all reasonable and stuff. >>
This better?
LOL
In this case the seller seems to know the history of these signed covers. Of course, those First Day covers are widely available through stamp dealers so that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it is a point of data that can be easily verified either through the Basketball Hall or serious basketball autograph collectors.
I have a Thurman Munson signed 1974 Topps card that I handed to him over the dugout at an A's game one night. I have had that card ever since. When it became apparent that I needed to get PSA/DNA or JSA to "approve" it in order to get a decent price for it I sent it to JSA - they rejected it, so I sent to PSA and guess what? Same thing.
My suggestion would be to post a link or a picture on the Net54 autograph board. I'm sure there is a basketball guy there who can give you an opinion for free, and honestly I trust those guys more than the TPAs.
MULLINS5 - You talk about this becoming a trend lately. Is this forum specific or hobby wide? Curious to read about other scenarios.
CHARRIGAN - My Ebay ID is Epic-Memorabilia. Sorry we can't do business, even though hockey is not a focus right now.
WhiteTornado - This was the first time I sent something to PSA/DNA to be authenticated and had it rejected (honestly, it was only my second time ever sending anything in - other was a team signed 1990 NBA All-Star Basketball that was authentic). Perhaps my thinking is flawed, and apparently in this situation it is, but if this is such a large problem industry-wide, why wouldn't the seller state this in the auction? If there is a certain protocol from auto's deemed not authentic, it would have been nice to know up front. Then again, the counter-argument is I should have asked first. Point taken.
Bishop - Looking for educated opinions, not approval.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
I think the particular issue of "escalation without consultation" strikes a particular chord with me. Across many aspects of life, there is a trend that the way to get what you want is not to be right but be loud. Complain to the manager, get me your supervisor, etc. It's really not necessary when you have two reasonable parties to a dispute, especially early on. I read the seller's response as outgoing and accommodating. I'm sure if you had sought clarification and expressed your reservations to them, it wouldn't have fallen on deaf ears. Regardless of who is right, how you handle situations of conflict defines your integrity and that's, well, a really important thing for me. I'm glad you posted and got the opportunity to reflect; I'm sure all of us (definitely me) are guilty of similar behavior at times. Feedback helps us be better.
I appreciate your follow up. I didn't mean to sound curt, and to be honest, your item isn't something I collect. As others have pointed out, it's possible it's a legit auto and perhaps PSA just hasn't seen enough of that particular one to make a solid determination. You could always post it here and get opinions.
Hats off to you for maintaining a level head (perhaps I could learn a lesson here, too...). Best wishes on working out a reasonable solution with the seller.
<< <i>No disrespect to the OP, who seems professional in his demeanor and conversations with the seller, but I think it is extremely unfair to sellers who receive messages from buyers wanting to return items because a TGC says that it's likely not genuine, or that they are "unable to authenticate" it.
Buyers who pickup anything raw (cards, packs, autos, et cetera) are assuming a risk that the item may not be authentic, or may have been opened or trimmed, altered, etc etc. If the item has already passed a TGC's standards then there's an attached premium to the item...or, at least, there should be.
There are also steps a potential buyer can take, such as reaching out to this community of experts for an opinion. I think, sometimes, people are afraid to reach out to a public community because they're afraid someone may purchase the item before them.
Another step is "PSA Quick Opinion"
Again, no disrespect to the OP, but this seems to be a trend that's taking place too much lately. >>
Agreed 100%.
These kind of buyers should be blocked.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
My registry sets
That is why PSA uses that wording instead of "not authentic".
<< <i>Can not authenticate does not mean not authentic.
That is why PSA uses that wording instead of "not authentic". >>
More logic.
Of course, there's also the question of when are you going to find another Chuck Hyatt autograph?
As a collector, I could care less whether it has a sticker on it or not. I either did my research on the signature or I didn't, and until I could make an informed decision I wouldn't buy it - period.
I think some people have taken this whole "authentication" concept WAY TOO FAR. It's been said before, but I guess needs repeating - PSA's authentication is an opinion, not a fact. Sometimes it helps, but other times it really doesn't and is just an extra cost (unless you want it in a slab, etc.).
In my experience, people who really know what they're doing don't care about certificates unless they're looking to resell it, since they can eliminate the risk of paying a fee without getting a result. I've sold numerous Mantle items for instance without certs, and have gotten as much or more than stickered items almost every time and certainly got more on a net basis than if I'd sent them in.
Point of all that is - seems like if you're putting the set together, you probably DO know what you're doing, so why not just keep it if you think it's good? As it stands now, no one can tell you any different and you wouldn't have bought it if you didn't think it was good. Nothing I've seen or heard so far would indicate anything different right?
<< <i>No disrespect to the OP, who seems professional in his demeanor and conversations with the seller, but I think it is extremely unfair to sellers who receive messages from buyers wanting to return items because a TGC says that it's likely not genuine, or that they are "unable to authenticate" it.
Buyers who pickup anything raw (cards, packs, autos, et cetera) are assuming a risk that the item may not be authentic, or may have been opened or trimmed, altered, etc etc. If the item has already passed a TGC's standards then there's an attached premium to the item...or, at least, there should be.
There are also steps a potential buyer can take, such as reaching out to this community of experts for an opinion. I think, sometimes, people are afraid to reach out to a public community because they're afraid someone may purchase the item before them.
Another step is "PSA Quick Opinion"
Again, no disrespect to the OP, but this seems to be a trend that's taking place too much lately. >>
I totally agree with your statement! I second that if a buyer is questioning the authenticity of a autograph he/she as the buyer has the option to use quick opinion (at least if its on ebay....i wish you could use it anywhere on the internet or heck even if you could like take a snap shot on the phone if your at a show or fleamarket and send it in to get an opinion (i think for now its just ebay you can do that on) but yeah i think its the buyers responsibility to get a quick opinion done especially if its on ebay if they dont then they should be buying at there own risk
www.everythingcollectibles.biz
<< <i>I agree with the comment about returning an item just because a TPG says no.....how many times do we have threads about "why is this a 9?" or "I pulled it from a pack and it came back EOT". TPG could be wrong, it doesnt mean the seller is a crook or that the item isnt authentic. If you want a PSA/DNA authenticated auto....BUY IT!!!! If you want it cheaper and having it graded yourself, then you take the risk of it not being authenticated. >>
Exactly!
i do have the agree with the OP though if i got a reply back like that i would think he was talking Credit to use with him again not crediting my card or refund (well i guess in sellers eyes it would be a refund) but as someone mentioned before there is room there for misscommunication or misunderstanding or in the famous words of Mr. Clemens "misheard" lol
www.everythingcollectibles.biz
<< <i>There's also a difference between "Unable to Render Opinion" and "Questionable Authenticity". Neither technically mean "not authentic". "Unable to render opinion" is exactly that: PSA for some reason, perhaps lack of exemplars, cannot say anything either way about authenticity. It is not in any way meant to mean not authentic. "Questionable authenticity" is what you get when an item fails PSA/DNA, but again simply means that *in their opinion* it is likely not authentic. It is an opinion. A trusted, qualified, expert opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. >>
Expert? i would have to disagree if you ask anyone of these so called experts to produce a certification as a forensic handwriting expert i doubt they could and if you really think about it you could do the same thing you pay psa to do... look over known authentic examples of a signature pretty much self education familiarize yourself with the signature of the item your wanting to purchase
www.everythingcollectibles.biz
<< <i> Expert? i would have to disagree if you ask anyone of these so called experts to produce a certification as a forensic handwriting expert i doubt they could and if you really think about it you could do the same thing you pay psa to do... look over known authentic examples of a signature pretty much self education familiarize yourself with the signature of the item your wanting to purchase >>
Expert (n): a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority. Surely, there might be some better, but it is a stretch to say that PSA/DNA authenticators are not experts.
<< <i>
<< <i> Expert? i would have to disagree if you ask anyone of these so called experts to produce a certification as a forensic handwriting expert i doubt they could and if you really think about it you could do the same thing you pay psa to do... look over known authentic examples of a signature pretty much self education familiarize yourself with the signature of the item your wanting to purchase >>
Expert (n): a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority. Surely, there might be some better, but it is a stretch to say that PSA/DNA authenticators are not experts. >>
i guess we can agree to disagree.....anyway i just wanted to say nice ebay store! i like the mix of hockey you have (Big hockey fan here) Keep up the good work there!
www.everythingcollectibles.biz